FEEDBACK: DEATH AND DESTRUCTION OF THE UNSAVED #2
11/6/09
We
appreciate feedback on the studies posted on this website. It helps us to see
if there is anything on this website that does not agree with the Bible.
Below is THE SECOND ROUND OF DISCUSSION ON THE
SUBJECT OF THE “THE DEATH AND
DESTRUCTION OF THE UNSAVED”.
THE READER’S FEEDBACK IS IN ITALICS. OUR
RESPONSE IS IN ALL CAPITALS AND [].
I appreciate the fact that you
and others are testing this annihilation doctrine to ensure that it is faithful
to the Bible. I had initially drafted a long email addressing all of the key
points in your message below. But since we’re all strapped for time, I decided
to narrow my response down to three of your key points: (1) what does
the dead body in Romans 8:10 represent?; (2) how does Satan energize the
unsaved (3) the meaning of the word “awake”. Perhaps later I will
address the other points as the discussion develops. [YOU ARE ALWAYS WELCOME TO ADDRESS OTHER POINTS AT A
FUTURE TIME. THE FEEDBACK HELPS IN THE TRUTH-SEARCHING PROCESS.] Please
let me know if I have misunderstood any of your key points.
You wrote: However, notice the
first part of Romans 8:10. It says that the “body is dead”.
It appears that you are using
Romans 8:10 to support the idea that the unsaved have died in spirit and body.
However, I believe the dead body refers to the believers. In Romans 8:10 we
read IF Christ be in you the body is dead because of sin.
[You understood me correctly. I APPLIED THE
PHRASE THE “BODY IS DEAD” TO BOTH THE BELIEVERS AND THE UNBELIEVERS. I WILL
EXPLAIN WHY IN A MINUTE.]
[HOWEVER, IF WE APPLY THE PHRASE “BODY IS DEAD”
ONLY TO THE BELIEVERS, IT STILL DOES NOT CHANGE THE ARGUMENTS ABOUT THE
BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF “LIFE” AND “DEATH” FOR MANKIND. rOMANS 8:10 SAYS THE
BELIEVER’S BODY IS “dEAD”. HIS BODY STILL EXISTS, BUT AS I WILL EXPLAIN
MORE BELOW, HIS BODY IS SEPARATED FROM GOD WHO IS “LIFE”. ]
[LET ME NOW EXPLAIN WHY I ALSO APPLY THIS PHRASE TO
THE UNBELIEVERS AND WHY I am using Romans 8:10 to support the teaching that IN
THE DAY THAT HE SINNED, Adam died In both body and spirit.]
[When we became saved IN THIS WORLD, that salvation
has only been applied to our spirit. OUR BODY HAS NOT YET EXPERIENCED
SALVATION. THAT IS WHY WE READ VERSES IN ROMANS 6 TO 8 TELLING US TO PUT DOWN
THE SINFUL DESIRES OF OUR BODY. ]
[Only in our spirit have we “passed from death
unto life” (John 5:24, 1 JOHN 3:14). SALVATION WILL NOT BE APPLIED TO OUR
BODY UNTIL THE RAPTURE. SO, THE BODY OF
THE BELIEVER IS JUST LIKE BODY OF THE UNBELIEVER. BOTH THE BELIEVER’S BODY AND
THE UNBELIEVER’S BODY IS STILL UNSAVED.]
[ROMANS
8:10 TELLS US PLAINLY THAT FOR THE BELIEVER, THE “BODY IS DEAD”. THIS IS
NOT A COMPLICATED STATEMENT. ]
[ALSO,
THE BODY OF THE BELIEVER IS LIKE THE BODY OF THE UNBELIEVER. GOD HAS NOT YET
APPLIED HIS SALVATION TO THE BELIEVER’S BODY. THE SALVATION HAS ONLY BEEN
APPLIED TO THE BELIEVER’S SPIRIT. ]
[SO,
FOR THE UNBELIEVER, HIS BODY IS IN THE SAME
[NOW,
LET’S GO BACK TO TALKING ABOUT JUST THE TRUE BELIEVER. ACCORDING TO ROMANS 8:10
HIS “BODY IS DEAD”. WE CANNOT SAY THAT FOR THE TRUE BELIEVER, HIS “BODY
HAS CEASED TO EXIST”. RATHER, FOR THE TRUE BELIEVER, THE “BODY IS SEPARATED”
FROM GOD. ]
[ROMANS
7:18 TEACHES THIS TRUTH. WE READ THERE: “For
I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will
is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”
THE “GOOD THING” IS THE GREEK WORD NORMALLY JUST TRANSLATED “GOOD”,
WHICH IS GOD HIMSELF. GOD IS THE “GOOD THING” IN VIEW IN ROMANS 7:18. ]
[NOTICE
THAT ROMANS 7:18 IS TALKING ABOUT THE BODY OF THE TRUE BELIEVER. THE BODY IS
THE “FLESH”. THE WORD “DWELLETH” IS THE SAME GREEK WORD THAT WE
FIND IN ROMANS 8:9 THAT SAYS THAT GOD “DWELLS” IN THE TRUE BELIEVER.]
[WHEN
WE PUT ROMANS 7:18 AND 8:9 TOGETHER, WE FIND THAT GOD DWELLS IN THE TRUE
BELIEVER (ROMANS 8:9), BUT NOT IN HIS BODY (ROMANS 7:18). SO, THAT MEANS GOD
DWELLS IN THE SPIRIT OF THE TRUE BELIEVER. THROUGH ROMANS 7:18 & 8:9, GOD
IS MAKING THIS DISTINCTION. WE MAY NOT UNDERSTAND HOW THAT DISTINCTION CAN BE,
BUT GOD IS MAKING IT. GOD IS SAYING THAT HE DWELLS IN THE SPIRIT OF THE TRUE
BELIEVER BUT NOT HIS BODY. ]
[THAT
IS WHY THE SPIRIT OF THE TRUE BELIEVER HAS “LIFE”, WHICH IS GOD HIMSELF
INDWELLING. BUT HIS BODY IS STILL “DEAD”, SEPARATED FROM GOD. ROMANS
7:18, GOD SAYS THAT HE DOES NOT DWELL IN THE “FLESH” OR BODY OF THE TRUE
BELIEVER. PAUL WAS A TRUE BELIEVER. ]
[THIS
MATERIAL IS DEVELOPED MORE IN THE STUDY ON “LIFE”: http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/life1.htm ]
[LET’S
CONSIDER ANOTHER PART OF ROMANS 8:10. GOD SAYS “BODY IS DEAD because of sin”. THE PHRASE “because of sin” TIES BACK TO
GENESIS 2:17. MANKIND DIED, BOTH IN BODY AND SPIRIT, THE DAY HE SINNED. MAN’S
BODY IS DEAD (SEPARATED FROM GOD; NOT INDWELT BY GOD, NOT ENERGIZED BY GOD) “BECAUSE
OF SIN”, BECAUSE MAN SINNED BACK IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN, BACK IN GENESIS 3
WHEN MAN FIRST DISOBEYED GOD. THAT IS WHY ROMANS 8:10 SAYS THAT THE BODY IS
DEAD “because of sin”. GOD
IS TYING BACK TO GENESIS 2:17 AND THE FACT THAT MAN DIED, BODY AND SPIRIT, THE
DAY HE SINNED.]
This verse is teaching that those
in Christ must “mortify the deeds of the body” because of sin.
[ROMANS
8:10 DOES NOT TALK ABOUT MORTIFYING (OR PUTTING TO DEATH) THE DEEDS OF THE
BODY. ROMANS 8:10 IS NOT TALKING ABOUT PUTTING TO DEATH “DEEDS”. RATHER ROMANS
8:10 IS TELLING US THAT FOR THE TRUE BELIEVER, ALREADY, HIS “BODY IS DEAD”.
WE CANNOT IGNORE THIS VERSE. IT IS A GREAT HELP IN UNDERSTANDING THAT THE
BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF DEATH FOR MANKIND CANNOT BE CESSATION OF EXISTENCE. THE
BODY OF THE TRUE BELIEVER STILL EXISTS, BUT IT IS SEPARATED FROM GOD.]
We mortify the body to
demonstrate that we have been made freed from sin (Romans 6:7).
[ROMANS
6 ALSO HELPS US UNDERSTAND THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF DEATH FOR MANKIND. WE READ IN ROMANS 6:2 “God forbid. How shall
we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”. God says that we are “dead
to sin”. If “death = cessation of existence” how have we “ceased to exist
to sin”? ]
[Why does God say we are “dead to sin”? ]
[WHEN WE UNDERSTAND THAT FOR MANKIND “DEATH =
SEPARATION” THEN THIS PASSAGE FITS VERY WELL. WHEN WE BECOME SAVED WE ARE “SEPARATED FROM SIN”. ]
[IS
THIS TRUE? YES, IT IS. ]
[AFTER
GOD SAVES US, GOD INDWELLS US AND ENERGIZES US. WE ARE ABLE TO TURN FROM SIN
AND SERVE GOD. MANY VERSES TALK ABOUT HOW THE TRUE BELIEVER WILL DESIRE AND
WILL DO THE WILL OF GOD. HE IS NO LONGER UNDER BONDAGE TO SIN. HE CAN TURN FROM
SIN. WHEN WE UNDERSTAND THAT FOR MANKIND “DEATH = SEPARATION”, THEN THE PHRASE
“DEAD TO SIN” MAKES COMPLETE SENSE. THE TRUE BELIEVER IS “SEPARATED FROM
SIN” IN THAT HE IS NOT IN BONDAGE TO SIN BUT RATHER CAN DO IT GOD’S WAY. ]
[GOD
IS SAYING THAT “I HAVE SAVED YOU AND NOW I INDWELL YOU AND ENERGIZE YOU. YOU
ARE SEPARATED FROM SIN. IT DOES NOT RULE
OVER YOU. SO WHY ARE YOU STILL DOING IT?”]
[THE SEPARATION IS NOT TOTAL, BECAUSE OUR BODY STILL
LUSTS AFTER SIN. ]
[GOD REPEATS THIS IDEA THAT THE TRUE BELIEVER IS “DEAD
TO SIN” IN VERSE 11, “Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead
indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord”. THE
TRUE BELIEVER IS “dead indeed unto sin”. HE HAS NOT CEASED TO EXIST IN
ANYWAY, BUT HE IS SEPARATED FROM SIN. BECAUSE GOD INDWELLS HIM AND ENERGIZES
HIM, THE TRUE BELIEVER IS NO LONGER IN BONDAGE TO SIN. HE CAN DO IT GOD’S
RULES. ]
This is similar to the idea that
we must crucify the flesh in order turn away from sin. We cannot
mortify/crucify the flesh unless we have become saved.
Ro 8: 10 And if Christ be in
you, the BODY IS DEAD because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of
righteousness.11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead
dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your
mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.12 Therefore, brethren, we are
debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.13 For if ye live after the
flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the
body, ye shall live.13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die : but if ye
through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is
freed from sin. Ro 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we
shall also live with him:
[WE GET HELP WITH THE PHRASE “DEAD WITH CHRIST”
FROM Colossians 2:20-23 WHERE WE READ: 20 “Wherefore if ye be dead with
Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are
ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not;
taste not; handle not;
22 Which all
are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which
things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and
neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.” ]
[notice that we also see the phrase “dead with Christ”
in colossians 2:20. but colossians 2:20 gives more information about what it
means to be “dead with Christ”. GOD SAYS THAT WE ARE “dead with
Christ from the rudiments of the world”. THE PHRASE “rudiments of the
world” IS EXPLAINED IN VERSES 21 TO 23. they ARE RELATED TO THE “commandments
and doctrines of men”. ONCE WE BECOME SAVED, WE ARE FREE OR SEPARATED FROM
THOSE. WE ARE NOT SUBJECT TO THOSE LAWS. ]
[IN THAT WAY, WE ARE “DEAD WITH CHRIST”. WE
ARE “WITH CHRIST” AND WITH HIM, WE ARE “sEPARATED” OR “DEAD” FROM THE “rudiments
of the world” OR THE “commandments and doctrines of men”. we are not
subject to those in anyway. we are “WITH CHRIST” and we are “separated”
or “dead” from those things of men.]
[ROMANS 6 HELPS US TO FURTHER SEE THAT THE BIBLICAL
DEFINITION OF “DEATH = SEPARATION” FOR MANKIND. IF WE TRY TO SUBSTITUTe
“cessation of existence” for “dead” in romans 6, the passage does not make
sense. however, if we substitute “separated”, it does make sense.]
Ga 2:20 I am crucified with
Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the
life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son
of God, who loved me, and gave
himself for me.
Re: So far, we’re seeing that
when Adam died, he died both body and spirit, according the Bible. No where
does God refute that. No where does God say that man only died spiritually.
As stated above, the dead body
refers to those in Christ.
[YES,
ROMANS 8:10 TALKS ABOUT THE TRUE BELIEVERS. REGARDING THE TRUE BELIEVERS,
ROMANS 8:10 SAYS THAT THE “BODY IS DEAD”. THIS IS BECAUSE ONLY IN HIS
SPIRIT HAS THE TRUE BELIEVER “PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE” (JOHN 5: 24,
1 JOHN 3:14). SO, FOR THE TRUE BELIEVER, THE “BODY IS DEAD”. THE
UNBELIEVER HAS NOT “PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE” IN HIS SPIRIT, SO HE IS
STILL DEAD IN BOTH BODY AND SPIRIT. ]
[WE
CANNOT IGNORE THAT GOD SAYS FOR THE TRUE BELIEVER, THE “BODY IS DEAD”.
HIS BODY HAS NOT CEASED TO EXIST IN ANYWAY, BUT IT IS STILL SEPARATED FROM GOD.
IT IS NOT INDWELT BY GOD (ROMANS 7:18)]
We must crucify the flesh so that
the motions of sin (lust) do not run rampant in the flesh (Rom 7:5-8). When we
become saved we will crucify the flesh with its affections and lusts (Gal
5:24). That is the meaning of the dead body of Romans 8:10.
[I
AGREE WITH YOUR STATEMENTS ABOUT PUTTING DOWN THE FLESH AND PUTTING DOWN SIN. ]
[HOWEVER,
WE CANNOT GET AWAY FROM THE FACT THAT GOD PLAINLY SAYS FOR THE TRUE BELIEVER,
THE “BODY IS DEAD”. WE CERTAINLY CANNOT SAY THAT THE “BODY IS NOT
DEAD”. GOD SAYS THE “BODY IS DEAD” FOR THE TRUE BELIEVER. THIS VERSE
GOES ALONG WITH MORE THAN 50 VERSES (MANY CONTAINED IN THE “LIFE” STUDY) THAT
TEACH THAT GOD HIMSELF IS “LIFE” AND THAT “LIFE” AND “DEATH” FOR MANKIND HAVE
TO DO WITH HIS RELATIONSHIP TO GOD. WE CANNOT AVOID THE SIMPLE STATEMENT THAT
GOD MAKES THAT THE “BODY IS DEAD”.]
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye
walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the
power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:3
Among
whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our
flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by
nature the children of wrath, even as
others.
Ga 5:24
And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections
and lusts.
Ro 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by
the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we
are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we
should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.7 ¶
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin,
but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou
shalt not covet.8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me
all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Re: God is saying that the devil
“energizes” unsaved man, rather than God.
It is true that Satan “works” in
the children of disobedience. But how is this work generated? Again, in Romans
7:5 we learned that the motions of sin WORK in our bodies (Romans 7:5). So, we
know that Satan stimulates this sin through lies and deception. Satan
stimulated the lusts of Eve to violate God’s law. But we can’t blame Satan for our
sins. In James 1:13-15 God places responsibility for sin squarely at our own
feet. So, the devil does not directly “energize” us to commit sin—the sins is
energized by our own lusts.
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye
walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the
power of the air, the spirit that now WORKETH <1754> in the children of
disobedience:
Ro 7:5 For when we were in the
flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did WORK <1754>
in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he
is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither
tempteth he any man:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of
his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth
forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
[I
DON’T HAVE ANY ARGUMENT WITH YOUR POINTS ABOUT HOW SIN AND SATAN WORK IN THE
UNSAVED. I JUST MENTIONED EPHESIANS 2:2 AND SATAN “WORKING” OR “ENERGIZING” THE
UNSAVED BECAUSE GOD MENTIONS IT AND IT IS BEING CONTRASTED WITH GOD “WORKING”
OR “ENERGIZING” THE TRUE BELIEVERS (PHILIPPIANS 2:12-13). EPHESIANS 2:2 AND
PHILIPPIANS 2:12-13 SHOW THE CONTRAST BETWEEN THE UNSAVED, WHO ARE DEAD, NOT
ENERGIZED BY GOD, AND THE SAVED, WHO HAVE PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE AND ARE
ENERGIZED BY GOD.]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Lastly, I would like to address
the meaning of the word “awake”.
Re: In these verses, the Psalmist
is asking God to “awake” or “arise” to his need. The Psalmist is asking God to become
more conscious of his problem.
When we examine the word “awake”
in Psalms 7:6 and Psalms 35:23 we find that judgment is the key concern. The
word judgment is focused on the law. The Bible teaches that the law bring
death. Therefore, if we are not delivered from the law, we will be executed in
body, soul and spirit.
[ACCORDING
TO ROMANS 7:9-11, GOD ALREADY EXECUTED (OR KILLED) ADAM AND EVE THE DAY
THEY SINNED (GENESIS 2:17)]
[WE
READ IN ROMANS 7:9-11: “9 For I was alive without the law once: but when
the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained
to life, I found to be unto death. 11
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew
me.”]
[THE
WORD “SLEW” IN ROMANS 7:11 IS THE STANDARD WORD “TO KILL” THAT WE
FIND IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, ADAM (AND THE WHOLE HUMAN
RACE) WAS “KILLED” BY GOD THE DAY ADAM SINNED. THAT IS WHY GOD CALLS THE
UNSAVED IN THIS WORLD “SLAIN” IN EZEKIEL 37:9. THE UNSAVED ARE ALREADY “SLAIN”
ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE. GOD “SLEW” MAN IN BOTH BODY AND SPIRIT (SOUL IS
A SYNONYM FOR SPIRIT). “TO BE KILLED” IS PARALLEL TO “TO DIE”. WE COVER BOTH
WORDS IN THE “LIFE” STUDY.]
If we desire to escape death [IF WE ARE UNSAVED WE ARE ALREADY DEAD, ACCORDING TO
THE BIBLE.] we must pray that God will “awake” and provide
justice in accordance with the law. The enemies of God (namely those in the
church) desire “wrong judgment” (Hab 1:4) because they do not want the will of
God (law). As a result, they seek to pervert judgment/law (Eccl 5:8). This is
the current situation in the church. However, on judgment day the unsaved will
“awake” to everlasting shame and contempt as they experience the full penalty
for perverting the law (judgment) of God. So, we must not look at the word
“awake” as physical consciousness.
[THE
PROBLEM WITH THIS REASONING IS THAT WE MUST REMEMBER THAT GOD DEFINES WORDS BY
HOW HE USES THEM IN THE BIBLE (1 CORINTHIANS 2:13). AS SHOWN IN THE PREVIOUS
EMAIL AND IN THE STUDY AT: http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/proofs1.htm , GOD ALWAYS USES THIS HEBREW WORD “AWAKE”
TO INDICATE SOME LEVEL OF CONSCIOUSNESS. IN FACT, GOD DEFINES THIS WORD IN 2
KINGS 4:31 SAYING THAT AN UNCONSCIOUS CORPSE IS NOT AWAKE. WE HAVE TO
LOOK AT HOW GOD USES WORDS IN THE BIBLE TO LEARN GOD’S DEFINITION. IF WE SAY
THAT DANIEL 12:2 IS SAYING THAT THE UNSAVED WILL “AWAKE” WITHOUT CONSCIOUSNESS,
WE ARE GOING AGAINST HOW GOD HIMSELF DEFINES THIS WORD. WE ARE NOT FOLLOWING
WHAT GOD IS TEACHING BY THIS HEBREW WORD “AWAKE”. ACCORDING TO 1
CORINTHIANS 2:13, GOD DEFINES WORDS BY HOW HE USES THEM AND GOD HAS DEFINED
THIS WORD AS REQUIRING CONSCIOUSNESS. AN UNCONSCIOUS CORPSE IS NOT “AWAKE”
ACCORDING TO 2 KINGS 4:31. SO, WHEN DANIEL 12:2 SAYS THAT THE UNSAVED WILL
“AWAKE”, GOD IS TEACHING THAT THIS CANNOT MEAN AN UNCONSCIOUS CORPSE.]
Christ will come with a sword in
His mouth to execute judgment in accordance with law. This judgment is not
dependent on man’s conscious state.
[HOWEVER,
GOD HAS DEFINED THIS HEBREW WORD “AWAKE” TO SIGNIFY CONSCIOUSNESS. WE
HAVE TO FOLLOW HOW THE BIBLE DEFINES WORDS.]
Ps 7:6 Arise, O LORD, in thine
anger, lift up thyself because of the rage of mine enemies: and awake
for me to the judgment <04941>. that thou hast commanded.
Ps 35:23 Stir up thyself, and
awake to my judgment<04941>, even unto my cause, my God and my
Lord.
[NOTICE
IN THESE TWO VERSES, PS 7:6 & 35:23, THE ONE “AWAKING” MUST BE
CONSCIOUS AND MUST TAKE ACTION. A PILE OF BONES CANNOT “awake to my judgment”. GOD DEFINES
WORDS BY HOW HE USES THEM.]
Ps 81:4 For this was a statute
for
Hab 1:4 Therefore the law is
slacked, and judgment <04941> doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass
about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment <04941> proceedeth.
2Ch 33:8 Neither will I any more
remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your
fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them,
according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances
<04941> by the hand of Moses.
Ps 89:30 If his children
forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments <04941>;