FEEDBACK: DEATH AND DESTRUCTION OF THE UNSAVED #4
We appreciate feedback on the studies posted on this website. It helps us to see if there is anything on this website that does not agree with the Bible.
Below is THE fourth ROUND OF DISCUSSION ON THE SUBJECT OF THE “THE DEATH AND DESTRUCTION OF THE UNSAVED”.
THE READER’S FEEDBACK IS IN ITALICS. OUR RESPONSE IS IN ALL CAPITALS AND .
I appreciate your response.
[THANK YOU FOR CONTINUING TO DIALOGUE WITH ME.]
I won’t try to respond to all your point lest this will become another 10-pager. In this message I would like to address four key points/questions in your study:
1. Why do the unsaved still have a spirit if ALL died spiritually in Adam?
2. What is the meaning of the word destruction in Deuteronomy 28:15-68?
3. Does God indwell the whole body (temple) of the believer or just his spirit?
4. Is there any good thing in the bodies of the believers?
1. Re: [IF “DEATH = CESSATION OF EXISTENCE” AND WE AGREE THAT AT LEAST MAN’S SPIRIT IS DEAD (YOU JUST SAID ADAM DIED SPIRITUALLY), THEN WHY DOES UNSAVED MAN STILL HAVE A SPIRIT? (1 PETER 3:19, PSALM 78:8, DANIEL 2:1,3). IF DEATH IS ANNIHILATION AND MAN’S SPIRIT IS DEAD, WHY HAS NOT HIS SPIRIT BEEN ANNIHILATED?]
Why does man still have a spirit if he is spiritually dead? In the case of Adam, spiritual death means loss of eternal life.
[YOU MENTIONED THAT THE DAY THAT ADAM SINNED HE EXPERIENCED “LOSS OF ETERNAL LIFE”.
THE STATEMENT, “LOSS OF ETERNAL LIFE”, IS REALLY SAYING THAT THE DAY HE SINNED, ADAM BECAME “SUBJECT TO DEATH” OR THAT ADAM WOULD “DIE IN THE FUTURE”
IF WE HOLD TO THE TRADITIONAL DEFINITIONS, “LIFE = EXISTENCE” AND “DEATH = CESSATION OF EXISTENCE”, THEN THE STATEMENT “LOSS OF ETERNAL LIFE” MEANS THAT THE “LOSS OF ETERNAL EXISTENCE” (IF “LIFE = EXISTENCE”).
THIS IS REALLY MEANS THAT ADAM BECAME “SUBJECT TO DEATH” OR THAT ADAM “WILL DIE IN THE FUTURE”.
THAT IS, HE DID NOT REALLY DIE THE DAY HE SINNED, BUT RATHER, ADAM WOULD DIE IN THE FUTURE.
HOWEVER, GENESIS 2:17 SAYS THAT “for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
IN GENESIS 2:17, GOD IS LITERALLY SAYING “DYING THOU SHALT DIE”. GOD PUT THE VERB “TO DIE” TWO TIMES.
BASED UPON THE PRINCIPLE OF GENESIS 41:32, GOD IS DOUBLING UP TO MAKE THE POINT THAT ADAM REALLY DID DIE THE DAY HE SINNED.
GENESIS 2:17 IS SAYING THAT ADAM DIED THE DAY THAT HE SINNED.
THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT.
THE STATEMENT “LOSS OF ETERNAL LIFE” REALLY MEANS THAT ADAM DID NOT DIE UNTIL SOME FUTURE POINT.
BUT GOD SAID “in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die”.
ADAM TRULY DIED THE DAY THAT HE SINNED. ]
[I THINK THE PROBLEM IS THAT IN OUR THINKING, THE DEFINITIONS “DEATH = CESSATION OF EXISTENCE OR A CORPSE” AND “LIFE = EXISTENCE” ARE DEEPLY INGRAINED INTO OUR THINKING.
I BELIEVE THAT THESE DEFINITION ARE EFFECTIVELY PART OF THE “PILLAR AND GROUND OF TRUTH” UPON WHICH WE BUILD OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE BIBLE.
SO WHEN WE READ THE WORDS “DEATH” AND “LIFE” IN THE BIBLE, WE FILTER WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS THROUGH THESE DEFINITIONS.
WHEN WE READ GENESIS 2:17 WE HAVE TO CHANGE THE VERSE TO FIT THESE DEFINITIONS.
WE HAVE LOCKED INTO OUR MINDS THAT “DEATH = CESSATION OF EXISTENCE OR A CORPSE” AND ADAM WAS STILL IN THIS WORLD UNTIL 930 YEARS, SO WE HAVE TO CHANGE THE VERSE TO “SUBJECT TO DEATH” OR “LOST HIS ETERNAL LIFE” OR “DIED TO THE LIFE IN CHRIST”, ETC.
EVEN THE TERM “SPIRITUALLY DEAD” IS A PROBLEM FOR THE ABOVE DEFINITIONS, BECAUSE “SPIRITUALLY” HAS TO DO WITH THE “SPIRIT” AND YET THE BIBLE TEACHES US THAT UNSAVED MAN STILL HAS A SPIRIT (PSALM 78:8, DANIEL 2:1,3, 1 PETER 3:19). UNSAVED MAN’S SPIRIT HAS NOT CEASED TO EXIST.
IF WE SAY THAT UNSAVED MAN IS “SPIRITUALLY DEAD”, THEN WE ARE SAYING HIS SPIRIT IS DEAD. BUT, HIS SPIRIT HAS NOT CEASED TO EXIST IN ANY WAY.]
We might also say that Adam lost his eternal inheritance after he violated the law. This inheritance is typified by the Garden of Eden. Adam also lost access to the tree of life (i.e., eternal life) after being cast out of the garden of Eden (Gen 3:22). So, Adam experienced spiritual death in the sense that he lost his eternal inheritance.
[MANKIND DID LOSE HIS ETERNAL INHERITANCE. THAT IS TALKED ABOUT IN THE BIBLE.
BUT, GENESIS 2:17 SAYS REALLY DID DIE IN THE DAY THAT HE SINNED.]
Subsequently, all men were born without an eternal inheritance. But when we become saved, we regain our eternal inheritance by being adapted back into the family of God--this indicates that we are no longer under the law (Romans 8:23, Gal 4:5, Eph 1:5). At that moment, we also regain access to the tree of life to indicated that we have received eternal life (Rev 22:14, Rev 2:7). So, we must not think of spiritual death as the collapse of some literal spirit within our physical bodies. The unsaved still have a spirit/soul but like Adam they are prohibited from entering the Garden of Eden (eternal inheritance/life) unless they are adopted by God (i.e., be free from the law).
[YES, WHEN ADAM SINNED, WE LOST OUR INHERITANCE, AND UPON SALVATION WE ARE ADOPTED BACK INTO THE FAMILY OF GOD.
HOWEVER, GOD SAYS THAT ADAM ALSO DIED THE DAY HE SINNED. THE REST OF THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT UNSAVED MAN IS ALREADY DEAD. ROMANS 8:10 AND 1 CORINTHIANS 15:29 TEACH THAT THE BODY OF THE TRUE BELIEVER IS STILL DEAD.
THE BIBLE TEACHES THESE TRUTHS ALSO.]
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Mr 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
[THE TERM “ETERNAL LIFE” IS ANOTHER NAME FOR THE LORD JESUS AS WE READ IN THESE VERSES:
1 John 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
WHEN WE KNOW THAT “ETERNAL LIFE” IS ANOTHER NAME FOR THE LORD JESUS, IT HELPS US UNDERSTAND THIS VERSE BETTER:
1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
A MURDERER DOES NOT HAVE THE LORD JESUS, WHO IS CALLED “ETERNAL LIFE” ABIDING IN HIM.
A FULFILLMENT OF MARK 10:17 AND OTHER VERSES IS LITERALLY THAT WE INHERIT THE LORD JESUS (AND ALL HIS BLESSINGS), WHO IS CALLED “ETERNAL LIFE”.
OF COURSE WE CAN LOOK AT IT THIS WAY ALSO: WE INHERIT THE LORD JESUS, WHO IS CALLED “LIFE”, AND WE HAVE HIM FOREVERMORE.]
Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Ro 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Ga 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[WE AGREE ABOUT ADOPTION BACK INTO THE FAMILY OF GOD AND THAT THE UNSAVED HAVE LOST THEIR INHERITANCE.
HOWEVER, WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND THAT GOD SAID THAT ADAM WOULD DIE IN THE DAY THAT HE SINNED AND NOT AT SOME FUTURE TIME.
THE DAY HE SINNED, ADAM LOST BOTH HIS INHERITANCE AND HE ALSO DIED. ]
2. Re: IN DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68, WE READ MANY WORDS OF CONSCIOUS AFFLICTION. THIS PASSAGE IS DIRECTED TO ANYONE WHO HAS SINNED
THROUGHOUT TIME. IN DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68, GOD IS DESCRIBING AN ON-GOING “DESTROYING” OF CONSCIOUS AFFLICTION THAT ALL OF THE
UNSAVED THROUGHOUT TIME MUST ENDURE.
In Deuteronomy 28 God is using words like
destroy, perish, consume or remove to demonstrate what happens when we lose our
eternal inheritance (in this case, Canaan). This destruction begins
when God withholds rain (i.e., the doctrine of God—Deut 28:12). As
mentioned above, Adam also lost his eternal inheritance (the Garden of Eden)
and could no longer access the tree of life. Likewise, God executed
judgment on the Jews by removing them from Canaan (
Deut 28:20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me. 21 The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.22 The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.
De 28:12 The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.
De 28:24 The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
De 28:51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.
De 28:63 And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Jos 9:24 And they answered Joshua, and said, Because it was certainly told thy servants, how that the LORD thy God commanded his servant Moses to give you all the land, and to destroy all the inhabitants of the land from before you, therefore we were sore afraid of our lives because of you, and have done this thing.
2Ch 33:8 Neither will I any more remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.
De 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
[YES, YOU MAKE MANY GOOD POINTS. FOR EXAMPLE ABOUT HOW THE PUNISHMENT FOR SIN INCLUDES THE FACT THAT GOD TAKES AWAY THE GOSPEL AS IN VERSE 12.
HOWEVER, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT EVERYTHING WE READ IN DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68.
AN IMPORTANT POINT ABOUT DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68 IS THAT IT CONTAINS MANY WORDS AND PHRASES THAT SIGNIFY CONSCIOUS AFFLICTION.
WE WILL LOOK AT JUST A FEW HERE:
WE READ IN DEUTERONOMY 28:27-29:
The LORD will smite thee with the botch of
28 The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:
29 And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.
THE WORD “BOTCH” IN VERSE 27 IS THE SAME WORD TRANSLATED “BOIL” IN EXODUS 9:9-11. WE CAN TELL FROM THE CONTEXT IN EXODUS 9:9-11 THAT THOSE “BOILS” WERE A CONSCIOUS AFFLICTION FOR THE EGYPTIANS. THIS HEBREW WORD IS ALWAYS USED TO INDICATE SOME KIND OF CONSCIOUS AFFLICTION.
THE WORD “MADNESS” IN VERSE 28 IS THE SAME WORD “furiously” FOUND IN 2 KINGS 9:20 WHEN JEHU WAS STIRRED UP TO KILL KING JORAM. THIS WORD IS ALWAYS USED FOR CONSCIOUS EXPERIENCE; TO BE STIRRED UP IN SOME MANNER.
THE WORD “ASTONISHMENT” IN VERSE 28 IS USED IN ZECHARIAH 12:4 TO INDICATE CONSCIOUS EXPERIENCE.
THE VERB TO “GROPE” THAT WE FIND IN VERSE 29 ALWAYS INDICATES SOME KIND OF CONSCIOUS SEARCHING OR FEELING.
WE READ IN VERSE 34:
So that thou shalt be mad for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.
THE WORD “MAD” IS USED IN 1 SAMUEL
21:14-15 TO SPEAK OF DAVID WHEN HE ACTED CRAZY BEFORE ACHISH KING OF
WE REMEMBER THAT GOD SETS THE RULE IN 1 CORINTHIANS 2:13 THAT HE DEFINES WORDS BY HOW HE USES THEM IN THE BIBLE. THE ABOVE WORDS ARE GIVEN AS EXAMPLES OF WORDS THAT GOD ALWAYS USES TO SIGNIFY CONSCIOUS EXPERIENCE.
THESE ARE SOME EXAMPLES OF WORDS IN DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68 THAT GOD HAS DEFINED AS MEANING CONSCIOUS AFFLICTION.
THEY ARE MANY MORE WORDS AND PHRASES THAT SIGNIFY CONSCIOUS AFFLICTION IN DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68. I JUST GAVE A FEW HERE BECAUSE I AM TRYING TO MAKE THIS STUDY SHORTER. MORE EXAMPLES ARE GIVEN AT THIS LINK:
to find the study on Deuteronomy 28, search for the phrase “Deuteronomy 28”
IN DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68, GOD IS DEFINING WHAT WE MEANS BY THE “DESTROYING”, “PERISHING” AND “CONSUMING” THAT HE INTENDS FOR THE UNSAVED. IT INCLUDES CONSCIOUS AFFLICTION.
in this chapter, 7 times we find a common word translated “destroy”.
also, 4 times we find the Hebrew word “abad” which is translated “perish” or “destroy”
in verse 21 we find the hebrew word “kalah” which is commonly translated “consume” OR AS A NOUN, “FULL END”.
these are common verbs that appear in verses that are used as arguments for annihilation.
IN DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68, GOD IS DEFINING THESE WORDS IN CONJUNCTION WITH CONSCIOUS AFFLICTION.
ANOTHER IMPORTANT POINT IS THAT THESE 3 COMMON VERBS ARE USED IN A TENSE THAT SIGNIFIES AN ON-GOING ACTION.
in the 12 verses THAT HAVE these 3 verbs, THE VERBS are not in the past tense or perfect tense. they are in a tense that describe an on going action as with an “ing”, like “destroying”, “perishing” or “consuming”.
the important point is that they are not in the past tense. they are not describing a completed action.
deuteronomy 28:15-68 describes the “destroying”, “perishing” and “consuming” that god is talking about for the unsaved and it includes conscious affliction.
this is the big point.
yes. deuteronomy 28:15-68 has language to indicate that the unsaved have lost their eternal inheritance.
however, deuteronomy 28:15-68 also has many statements that promise conscious affliction for the unsaved.
in deuteronomy 28:15 god says that if we sin then these plagues come upon us. THIS includes all of the unsaved BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED. it is not just talking about those here on may 21, 2011.
so, deuteronomy 28:15-68 promises conscious affliction to all of the unsaved. it agrees with daniel 12:2 that the unsaved who are sleeping in the dust will awake to consciousness to experience this affliction.
THE BODY OF THE TRUE BELIEVER IS ALSO CALLED THE
The context of I Corinthians 6:16 refers to the
temple as the body and spirit. In I Corinthians 6:20 God makes a clear
distinction between the body and spirit by stating that we must glorify Him in
both. God also declares that the body and spirit of this temple were
bought with a price (Christ) and are owned by God (I Cor 6:20). As a
result, the believers must not allow their bodies to be yoked with
unbelievers. So, this is not speaking about the temple as a corporate
entity. The temple refers to the true believers who are indwelt by the
Holy Spirit. When we engage in sin we defile the
1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.19 What? know ye not that your BODY IS THE TEMPLE of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your BODY, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
II Cor 6:14 Be ye
not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath
righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with
darkness?15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath
he that believeth with an infidel?16 And what agreement hath the
2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the FLESH and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
[WE AGREE ON SEVERAL POINTS HERE:
YES. BOTH THE BODY AND THE SPIRIT OF THE TRUE BELIEVER ARE THE
HOWEVER, JUST BECAUSE BOTH THE BODY AND THE SPIRIT ARE THE
IT IS TRUE THAT THE BODY OF THE BELIEVER IS NOT A “CORPORATE ENTITY” LIKE THE LOCAL CONGREGATION WAS.
BUT THE POINT IS THAT JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE OR SOMETHING IS PART OF
SO THE STATEMENT THAT BOTH THE TRUE BELIEVER’S BODY AND SPIRIT ARE
YES. WE ARE TO GLORIFY GOD IN BOTH OUR BODY AND OUR SPIRIT. ALSO, OUR WHOLE BEING, BODY AND SPIRIT, WAS BOUGHT BY CHRIST. GOD OWNS OUR WHOLE BEING. WE AGREE ON THAT.
HOWEVER, THESE STATEMENTS, IN THEMSELVES, DO NOT MEAN THAT GOD PRESENTLY INDWELLS THE TRUE BELIEVER’S BODY.
GOD INDWELLS THE SPIRIT (ROMANS 7:18, 8:9) GOD WORKS IN THE BELIEVER (PHILIPPIANS 2:12-13) IN HIS SPIRIT TO ENABLE HIM TO PUT DOWN SIN IN HIS BODY. HOWEVER, THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT GOD INDWELLS THE BODY.
CHRIST BOUGHT BOTH THE SPIRIT AND THE BODY. CHRIST HAS PAID FOR ALL THE SINS THE BELIEVER HAS EVER COMMITTED, AND THOSE FUTURE SINS THAT THE BELIEVER WILL STILL COMMIT IN HIS BODY.
HOWEVER, CHRIST IS NOT YET DONE WITH THE BELIEVER’S BODY. THE BELIEVER WILL RECEIVE A NEW BODY ON THE LAST DAY, AND CHRIST WILL INDWELL THAT BODY.
THESE TWO FACTS: THAT WE ARE TO GLORY GOD IN OUR WHOLE BEING AND THAT CHRIST BOUGHT THE WHOLE BELIEVER DO NOT SHOW THAT CHRIST INDWELLS THE BODY AT THIS POINT. BUT, HE WILL AT THE RAPTURE.
THE SAME GREEK WORD TRANSLATED “BOUGHT” IN 1 CORINTHIANS 6:20 IS ALSO FOUND IN MATTHEW 13:44. WE READ THERE:
WE KNOW THAT THE “MAN” IS CHRIST. THE “TREASURE” IS THE TRUE BELIEVERS. THE “FIELD” IS THE WORLD (MATTHEW 13:38).
CHRIST “BOUGHT” THE WHOLE WORLD, BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN HE INDWELLS EVERYONE IN THE WHOLE WORLD. IN THE SAME WAY, CHRIST BOUGHT THE WHOLE BELIEVER, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE YET INDWELLS THE WHOLE TRUE BELIEVER.
WE DO “CLEANSE” THE FLESH BY OBEYING THE BIBLE, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT CHRIST INDWELLS OUR BODIES AT THIS TIME.
THE LANGUAGE OF 1 CORINTHIANS 6:19 IS VERY INTERESTING AND APPEARS TO PROVE YOUR ARGUMENT THAT GOD INDWELLS THE BODY OF THE TRUE BELIEVER. WE READ THERE:
What? know ye not
that your BODY IS THE
SINCE THE BELIEVER’S BODY IS THE
HOWEVER, WE HAVE PARALLEL LANGUAGE IN 1 CORINTHIANS 3:16. WE READ THERE:
Know ye not that
ye are the
THE “YE” WAS THE WHOLE CONGREGATION, BOTH BELIEVERS AND
UNBELIEVERS. ALL OF THEM WERE THE “
THEN, THE NEXT THING WE READ IS THAT THE “Spirit of God dwelleth in you”.
SO, IT APPEARS THAT THIS “IN YOU” MUST INCLUDE ALL OF THE “YE” IN THE FIRST PART OF THE VERSE.
HOWEVER, WE KNOW THAT IT DOES NOT.
ONLY THE TRUE BELIEVERS IN THE CONGREGATION WERE PERSONALLY INDWELT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.
THEREFORE, JUST BECAUSE WE READ THAT “ye are the
1 CORINTHIANS 6:19 IS WRITTEN
What? know ye not
that your body is the
WE READ THAT THE BODY OF THE TRUE BELIEVER IS THE “
BUT WITH THE HELP OF 1 CORINTHIANS 3:16, WE SEE THAT THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY THE CASE. THE “IN YOU” CAN REFER TO JUST THE SPIRIT OF THE TRUE BELIEVER.
WITH GOD IN THE TRUE BELIEVER’S SPIRIT AND WORKING IN HIS SPIRIT, THE TRUE BELIEVER IS ENABLED TO PUT DOWN SIN IN HIS BODY.
WE CAN KNOW THAT GOD DOES NOT INDWELL THE TRUE BELIEVER’S BODY YET, BECAUSE NO GOOD (AND GOD IS THE MOST IMPORTANT GOOD) INDWELLS THE TRUE BELIEVER’S BODY (ROMANS 7:18). THAT IS WHY HE HAS SO MANY SIN PROBLEMS. ]
4. GOD IS SAYING THAT NO GOOD THING DWELLS IN THE BELIEVER’S BODY. GOD DID NOT SAY “NO GOOD THING - APART FROM THE SPIRIT OF GOD”.
Paul is only referring to the works of the flesh as a means of salvation. In this regard, no good thing is in our flesh because our works are like filthy rags.
[IN ROMANS 7:18 GOD IS DESCRIBING THE NATURE OF THE TRUE BELIEVER.
GOD IS TEACHING THAT FOR THE TRUE BELIEVER “in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:”
IN THE GREEK IT IS SIMPLY “dwelleth no good”. THE WORD “THING” WAS ADDED BY THE TRANSLATORS.
THE SAME GREEK WORD “DWELLETH” IS FOUND IN ROMANS 8:9:
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
GOD IS GOOD. THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.
IF GOD INDWELT THE TRUE BELIEVER’S BODY, THEN ROMANS 7:18 WOULD HAVE TO BE WRITTEN THIS WAY: “in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth good”.
GOD IS THE GOOD THAT WOULD DWELL IN THE TRUE BELIEVER’S BODY. BUT, WE CANNOT GET AROUND THE FACT THAT NO GOOD INDWELLS THE TRUE BELIEVER’S BODY. THEREFORE, GOD CANNOT BE INDWELLING THE TRUE BELIEVER’S BODY.
THAT IS WHY THE TRUE BELIEVER HAS THE SIN PROBLEMS WITH HIS BODY. GOD IS NOT INDWELLING HIS BODY, LIKE GOD IS DOING IN HIS SPIRIT. ]
But Paul is not saying that we won’t perform good works or produce good fruit in our flesh. On the contrary, in Philippians 1:21 Paul speaks about producing fruit while living in the flesh. Moreover, a study of the word “good” also shows that we are capable of doing good deeds in the flesh that are pleasing to God (Acts 9:36, Eph 2:10, I Timothy 5:10).
[YES, WE AGREE THAT THE TRUE BELIEVERS CAN PERFORM GOOD WORKS. THERE IS NO DISAGREEMENT ABOUT THAT.
ROMANS 7:18 IS DESCRIBING THE NATURE OF THE TRUE BELIEVER. GOD IS USING THE APOSTLE PAUL AS AN EXAMPLE. ROMANS 7:18 IS SAYING THAT NO GOOD, AND THAT INCLUDES GOD, DWELLS IN THE BELIEVER’S BODY.
ROMANS 7:18 IS NOT SAYING THAT THE BELIEVER CANNOT DO GOOD WORKS.
THESE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. ]
Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good <18> thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
Ac 9:36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good <18> works and almsdeeds which she did.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good <18> works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
1Ti 5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good <18> work.
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good <18> works.
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good <18> work reprobate.
In Philippians 1:21 Paul speaks about producing fruit while living in the flesh. He also indicated that abiding in the flesh was needful.
[THE ABOVE VERSES ARE TEACHING THAT THE TRUE BELIEVER CAN PERFORM GOOD WORKS.
IN THIS WORLD, WE ARE STILL IN THE FLESH AND THE TRUE BELIEVER IS ABLE TO DO GOOD WORKS.
HOWEVER, THAT IS A DIFFERENT ISSUE THAN IF ANY GOOD DWELLS IN US.
IN ROMANS 7:18 GOD IS TALKING ABOUT GOOD “DWELLING” IN OUR FLESH. IT IS THE SAME WORD “DWELL” THAT WE FIND IN ROMANS 8:9 WHICH SAYS THAT GOD “DWELLS” IN THE TRUE BELIEVERS.
IN ROMANS 7:18 GOD, THROUGH THE APOSTLE PAUL, IS SAYING THAT NO GOOD DWELLS IN OUR BODY. THAT WOULD INCLUDE THE FACT THAT GOD, WHO IS THE GOOD, DOES NOT DWELL IN OUR BODIES.
THE VERSES THAT YOU LISTED ABOVE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE BELIEVERS BEING ABLE TO DO GOOD WORKS. YES, YOU ARE CORRECT, THE BELIEVERS ARE ABLE TO DO GOOD WORKS. THAT IS A CORRECT STATEMENT.
MY POINT IS BASED UPON ROMANS 7:18 WHICH INDICATES THAT GOOD, INCLUDING GOD THE GOOD, DOES NOT DWELL IN THE BELIEVER’S BODY.
THESE ARE TWO SEPARATE POINTS.]
Thanks again for the response.
[THANK YOU AGAIN FOR THE REPLY.]