FEEDBACK: TWO INTERESTING VERSES IN JOB
2/10/10
We
appreciate feedback on the studies posted on this website. It helps us to see
if there is anything on this website that does not agree with the Bible.
Below is A QUESTION CONCERNING TWO INTERESTING VERSES IN THE BOOK OF JOB.
THE READERS QUESTION IS IN ITALICS. OUR
RESPONSE FOLLOWS.
Hello,
I've been looking through your
website.
I may have missed it but I looked
for discussions on Job 7:9 and Job 10:18,19.
Job 7:9 [As] the cloud is
consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up
no [more].
Job 10:18 Wherefore then hast
thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no
eye had seen me!
Job 10:19 I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been
carried from the womb to the grave.
Could you direct me to studies
you may have for these verses or perhaps provide new ones based on these
verses?
Thank you.
Thank
you for studying the website and for the feedback. We will now examine these
two verses.
We
read in Job 7:9:
As
the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave
shall come up no more.
We
read the word consumed and it may make us think of annihilation.
Perhaps we think of consuming an ice cream cone. However, the Biblical rule
is that we must compare Scripture with Scripture to see how a word is used in
the Bible to understand what God means by that word.
This
same Hebrew word translated consume also appears in the following
verses:
Psalms
31:10 For my life is spent <03615> with
grief, and my years with sighing: my strength faileth because of mine iniquity,
and my bones are consumed.
Psalms
39:10 Remove thy stroke away from me: I
am consumed <03615> by the blow of thine hand.
Psalms
69:3 I am weary of my crying: my throat
is dried: mine eyes fail <03615> while I wait for my God.
Psalms
73:26 My flesh and my heart faileth <03615>: but God is the
strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.
The
above verses are some examples of this same Hebrew word which is translated consume
in Job 7:9. In the above examples, this Hebrew word cannot mean annihilation.
Rather, the context of each verse is an on-going consuming of conscious
affliction.
This
Hebrew word is used a number of times to describe an on-going consuming of
conscious affliction or experience. We may think of the word consume in the
sense annihilation, but God uses this Hebrew word in verses in which it cannot
mean annihilation, but rather a continuous consuming of conscious affliction.
For
more information about how God uses this Hebrew word, please see the study at
this link:
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/kalah1.htm
The
next Hebrew word in Job 7:9 was poorly translated as vanisheth away.
Maybe the translators got this sense from the verse, but the Hebrew word used
here is mostly translated go or walk. Here are some examples:
Job 34:8 Which goeth in
company with the workers of iniquity, and walketh <03212> with wicked men.
Psalms 23:4 Yea, though I
walk <03212> through the valley of the shadow of
death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff
they comfort me.
Psalms 126:6 He that goeth <03212> forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed,
shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him.
Proverbs 3:28 Say not unto
thy neighbour, Go <03212>, and come again, and to morrow I will
give; when thou hast it by thee.
This
Hebrew word is used many times in this way. Job 7:9 is saying that the cloud
goes away. It is not saying that the cloud is annihilated. We see this in the
sky. Clouds are blown across the sky by winds and they can be undergoing a
continuous consuming and reforming and transforming as they blow across the sky
and finally they pass off the horizon. They go away in that sense.
We
will return to examine this first part of Job 7:9 in more detail, but now let
us look at the next part of the verse.
First,
let us consider the word grave. This is the Hebrew word sheol
which is translated grave about half of the time and hell
about half of the time. Because of how it is translated, some people have come
to the conclusion that hell = the grave, just a place of unconscious corpses.
However,
we have to consider everything that God says about this Hebrew word sheol
which is translated grave in Job 7:9. We find this same Hebrew word in
the following verses:
Psalms 116:3 The sorrows of
death compassed me, and the pains of hell <07585> gat hold upon me: I found trouble and
sorrow.
Isaiah 28:15 Because ye
have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell <07585> are we at agreement; when the overflowing
scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies
our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isaiah 28:18 And your
covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell <07585> shall not stand; when the overflowing
scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried
by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly
of hell <07585> cried I, and thou heardest my
voice.
In
Isaiah 28, the overflowing scourge is
an overflowing whipping which is a
conscious affliction.
In
the above verses, this Hebrew word sheol is associated with conscious
affliction.
The reason that the Hebrew word sheol is translated many times as hell
and many times as grave is given in Luke 16:22-23. The rich man is put
in the grave and the next conscious thing he knows is that he is tormented
(consciously afflicted) in hell. For the unsaved, the grave leads to conscious
affliction in hell. That is why the Hebrew word sheol is frequently
translated both grave and hell. For the unsaved, the grave
identifies with conscious afflictions in hell.
There
is more information on this topic in these studies:
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/grave1.htm
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/luke16a.htm
Let
us go back to Job 7:9.
Because
the Hebrew word sheol is frequently translated both as grave
and as hell, we will consider how to understand Job 7:9 with both
translations. Before that, let us do some ground work by looking at the next
word in Job 7:9.
The
next word to consider in Job 7:9 is goeth down. When we see words like
going up and going down, we often think of physical location. We think of
someone going up into the sky or going down into the grave.
However,
God uses the idea of going up and going down in terms of mans relationship
to God. For example, we read in Ephesians 2:6:
And hath raised us up together, and made us
sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians
2:6 is talking about when we are saved. When God saves us, we have been raised
up. We did not go up in anyway, but we have been raised up in
our standing before God. In principle we are now together in heaven
with Christ.
Let
us consider two other verses:
Isaiah 3:8 For Jerusalem is
ruined, and Judah is fallen: because their tongue and their doings are
against the LORD, to provoke the eyes of his glory.
Revelation 18:2 And he
cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is
fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul
spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
In
the above two verses, God is talking about
Regarding
the unsaved, we read in Psalm 140:10:
Let burning coals fall upon them: let them
be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.
Psalm
140:10 talks about the unsaved cast into the fire. Those are the fires of Gods
wrath. It also talks about burning coals falling on them, and that
these unsaved will not rise up.
On
Judgment Day, we dont have any Biblical information that burning coals are
literally going to be falling from the sky upon the unsaved. Rather,
on Judgment Day, the wrath of God will be falling from heaven upon the
unsaved. The wrath of God comes from God, who is in heaven.
Also,
the unsaved will not be able to rise up like we read in Ephesians 2:6.
The true believers are raised up with Christ upon salvation. The true
believers are not physically raised. Rather, we are raised up in our
standing before God. However, at Judgment Day, the unsaved will be cast down
under the wrath of God and will never be raised up with Christ.
These
are some examples of how God uses the idea of rising and falling to relate
to mans relationship to God, who is up there in heaven, to use a figure of
speech.
Let
us go back to Job 7:9 and apply these Biblical concepts. We read there:
As
the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave
shall come up no more.
Let
us look at the second part of the verse first. The word grave is the
Hebrew word sheol which could equally well be translated hell.
We are going to consider Job 7:9 with both translations. First, let us consider
Job 7:9 with the Hebrew word sheol translated as hell.
The
unsaved are cast into hell or the lake of fire because of their sins. God gives
a number of verses that identify hell with conscious affliction that goes with
experiencing the wrath of God. There is more information on this subject in the
study at this link:
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/grave1.htm
In
Job 7:9, the idea that the unsaved person goeth down can be understood
with the help of Psalm 140:10 and the other verses given. The unsaved at
Judgment Day are symbolically cast down from God, and away from God. They will
be cast down into the pit another figure that God uses for hell.
As
Job 7:9 says, once they are cast into hell, they shall come up no more.
This ties into Ephesians 2:6 and other verses. Those cast into hell at Judgment
Day are forever under the wrath of God and shall never be raised up
with Christ in salvation. They will remain forever down under the wrath of God.
Let
us consider Job 7:9 using the translation grave as the KJV translators
selected.
When
the unsaved die and their bodies sleep in the dust and are put into a grave,
they will never be raised up with Christ in salvation. In that sense,
they shall come up no more. When we die from this world unsaved,
and our bodies sleep in the dust, there is no more possibility of salvation. We
will never come up from being under the wrath of God.
This
ties into the first part of Job 7:9 which describes the nature of the wrath of
God upon the unsaved.
We
looked at several verses in which God uses this same Hebrew word translated consume
to describe an on-going consuming of conscious affliction. That is the nature
of hell or the lake of fire.
Also,
the unsaved are sent away from God. The translation vanisheth away
gives the wrong impression. The unsaved go away from God. They are
cast away from God.
When
we read verse 10, it helps us to understand more about what Job 7:9 means by
the unsaved not coming up out of the grave. We read:
9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth
away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
10 He shall return no more to his house, neither
shall his place know him any more.
In
verse 9, God talks about the unsaved in the grave and says that they shall
come up no. The word more is not in the Hebrew. In the
Hebrew text, the verse literally says they shall not come up.
Then
in verse 10 God gives more explanation about what He means by the fact that the
unsaved shall not come up. God says He shall return no more to his
house, neither shall his place know him any more. The house and place
have to do with this world and what the unsaved had in this world.
Verse
10 is focusing on the fact that the unsaved have lost everything they had in
this world. They will never come back to the things they had in this earth.
Whereas, the true believers will inherit the earth, to use the language of
Matthew 5:5. The true believers inherit the new earth. But, the unsaved lose
everything.
So,
the context of Job 7:10 points to the unsaved not coming up out of the grave to
receive anything again from this world. They will come out of their graves at
the end of the world to experience the wrath of God.
Someone
can think of Job 7:9 in terms of the corpse of man returning to the dust and
the man not coming up from the grave. In that case, verse 10 gives more
explanation to what God means by the fact that he shall not come up.
Verse 10 indicates that he shall not come up to return to his house
or his place. That is, the unsaved have lost everything they had in
this world, they will never return to the blessings they had in this world. In
that case, Job 7:9-10 is emphasizing that the unsaved have lost everything they
had in this world.
However,
Job 7:9-10 is not teaching that the unsaved will not awake to consciousness at
Judgment Day. The Bible does teach that at the end of the world, the unsaved
will awake to consciousness, but they will still be down under the wrath of
God.
Regarding
the idea that the unsaved remain as unconscious corpses in the grave, the Bible
teaches that this is not the case. For the unsaved whose bodies are presently
sleeping in the dust in the grave, the Bible does teach that they will
consciously awake (Daniel 12:2) and will consciously hear the
voice of God (John 5:28-29) and come out of their graves. God has carefully
defined the Hebrew word awake in Daniel 12:2 to require conscious
awaking. Also, the Bible shows that the unsaved will hear consciously the
voice of God.
This
information is developed in more detail in the study at this link:
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/proofs1.htm
We
will summarize Job 7:9 phrase by phrase. We read there:
As
the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave
shall come up no more.
1.
God gives examples of the word consumed in which it means an on-going
consuming of conscious affliction. This is the nature of the wrath of God on Judgment
Day.
2.
The translation vanisheth away gives the wrong impression. This Hebrew
word is mostly translated go or walk. The unsaved go away
or are cast away from God. That occurs at Judgment Day, but also occurs, in a
sense, when they die from this world, and their bodies sleep in the dust and
are put into a grave. At that point, there is no more hope of salvation.
3.
God uses the idea of man going up or going down to speak about his
relationship with God. The unsaved that are cast into hell or the lake of fire
at Judgment Day goeth down to hell. They are cast down and away from
God.
4.
Once we are cast down into hell or the lake of fire, we will never come up.
We will never be raised up with Christ in salvation. We will be forever
down under the wrath of God.
5.
Links to studies have been given show that the Bible teaches that the unsaved
who are presently sleeping in the dust will consciously awake and will
consciously hear the voice of God and come out of those graves.
6.
Verse 10 directs our understanding of the statement that the unsaved shall
not come up out of the grave to indicate that they shall not come up to
return to the blessings and things that they had in this world.
Let
us look at Job 10:18-19. We read there:
18 Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out
of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!
19 I should have been as though I had not been;
I should have been carried from the womb to the grave.
In
verse 19, we read the language, I should have been as though I had not been.
We
read similar language in Job 3:16:
Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as
infants which never saw light.
The
theme of Job 3:16 is similar to that of Job 10:18-19. This language may make us
think of annihilation. However, we have to check out how every conclusion with
any verse in the Bible that might impact the understanding.
We
read in Genesis 5:24:
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for
God took him.
Enoch
was a true believer. Concerning Enoch we read that he was not.
This is similar to the phrase I had not been.
Genesis
5:24 is not saying that Enoch ceased to exist. Rather, God is saying that Enoch
was not there. That is, Enoch was not in the
earth anymore because God took him to heaven.
We
can read was not or had not been and get the idea of a
cessation of existence. But, God does use these kinds of phrases to teach the
idea of was not there and had not been there.
Another
example is found in 1 Samuel 9:4. We read there:
And he passed through mount Ephraim, and passed
through the land of Shalisha, but they found them not: then they passed
through the land of Shalim, and there they were not: and he passed
through the land of the Benjamites, but they found them not.
1
Samuel 9 recounts the efforts of Saul and the servant to find the lost donkeys
of Sauls father. The donkeys were finally found. However, in verse 4, Saul and
the servant are still looking for them.
In
this verse we read that they came to the
The
language they were not is similar to what we read in Genesis
5:24, Job 3:16 and Job 10:19.
With
passages like Genesis 5:24 and 1 Samuel 9:4, God is helping us to understand
how He uses statements like he was not or they were not. God
can use those kinds of the phrases to indicate that the one in question was not
there.
In
the case of Enoch, he was not in the world, but in heaven. In the case of the
donkeys, they were not in that town. They were somewhere else. In the case of
Job, he desired not to be in this world.
This
is the idea that God is teaching in Job 3:16 and Job 10:19.
Job
was under great affliction in this world because he was being used as a picture
of the Lord Jesus as He was suffering for the believers sins.
In
Job 3:16 and Job 10:19, Job is desiring that he would never have been born into
this world. In that way, he could have avoided the suffering that he was
experiencing in this world. This is a big theme of Job 3.
There
are two important points to note about the translation of Job 3:16 and 10:19.
1.
The translators put the phrase had not been in those two verses, but
the original Hebrew text is most commonly translated was not.
The
phrase had not been sounds more forceful, giving the idea of
annihilation. However, a more accurate and common translation would be was
not
2.
Also, we read the word though in Job 10:19. However, this word is not
in the Hebrew text. It was added by the translators and gives a wrong
impression.
We
will make these two translation corrections, and compare these two verses with
Genesis 5:24:
Genesis
5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was
not; for God took him.
Job
3:16 Or as an hidden untimely birth I
was not; as infants which never saw light.
Job
10:19 I should be not as I was; I should
have been carried from the womb to the grave.
The
moving of the word not in Job 10:19 fits better for how we write
English sentences, but does not change the meaning. Job 10:19 is saying that
Job was in the world, but if he had been still-born, then he should not be that
way. He would no longer be in the world.
The
language of was not is carried through the 3 verses. Enoch was not
in this world anymore because God took him.
Likewise,
if Job had been still-born, then he was not because God would have
taken him also out of this world.
Job
3:16 and Job 10:19 are not teaching annihilation. Rather, they are the plea of
Job to be removed from this world. That would be a way for him to avoid the
suffering that he was experiencing in this world.
The
phrase no eye had seen me in Job 10:18 means that Job would not have
come into this world. He would have been still-born. No one would have seen
him.
Another
point to keep in mind is that Job was elect of God.
If
Job had been still-born, could he have ceased to exist?
No.
Job was elect of God. If he had been still-born, he would have gone into heaven
to be with God. Job would not have ceased to exist. He would not be in
this world, but he would be in heaven.
That
is an important point about Job 3:16 and Job 10:19. These verses are talking
about Job who was elect of God. Job could not have been annihilated. This is
another reason that Job 3:16 and 10:19 cannot be talking about annihilation.
There
is more information on this subject in the studies at these links:
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/job3a.htm
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/arenot1.htm
Thank
you again for your inquiry. We always want to be ready to look at a verse to
see if we need to make a correction in our understanding of the Bible.