FEEDBACK: IS GOD JUST?
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Below Are some QUESTIONs about the justice of god and deuteronomy 25:1-3.
THE READERS QUESTION IS IN ITALICS. OUR RESPONSE FOLLOWS.
I thought u overlooked the matter in Deut 25:2,3 regarding limited punishment. I read your article but would like your comments on
Ezekiel 44: 24
And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; [and] they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.
You quoted -
*****Sin is actually a controversy between God and man. Controversies between men have to do with civil problems. Sin is a controversy between God and man. *****
The verse in Ezekiel indicates that ultimately it is God who is the authority who administers punishments through governments although he appoints governments to deal with the matters.
Therefore if a a person is guilty of a mistake with his fellowmen it is still considered a sin against God.
My next comment is on -
If a person is saved or is an elect of God it only means that it was God's mercy that he was selected from the vast majority of the unsaved not because of his good deeds but it was by God's mercy. In the same way, if an unsaved person was not saved or is rejected of God it's not because he was more wicked than the elect but it was becoz God was not merciful unto him and so he is rejected. In that sense can God prolong the punishment of the unjust to eternity. Can that justify God's outstanding qualities like LOVE, MERCY, JUST...
How can an unsaved baby be under the same eternal wrath of God alongwith mass murderers !!!!!!!
Thank you very much for examining some of the studies and for the feedback.
In Ezekiel 44:24 God is teaching that His servants, the true believers, are to judge controversies according to the law of God. Whenever the true believer makes a judgment, he is to follow the law of God in his judgment. The believer must always operate according to my judgments, which is the law of God, the Bible. For example, the true believer is not to show partiality in making judgment.
You are also referring to a passage like Romans 13:1-4 in which God has established that mankind must be obedient to the civil laws setup by governments, as long as those laws do not violate the Bible.
You are correct in that when we violate the civil law, we are also sinning. When we break a law of the land, we have actually broken 2 laws, the civil law of man and the law of God, Romans 13:1-4.
Deuteronomy 25:1-3 is only focused upon the civil laws which are a controversy between men.
We can know that Deuteronomy 25:1-3 is only focused upon the punishment for laws between men when we examine how God uses the Hebrew word translated seem vile in verse 3. The punishment in Deuteronomy 25:1-3 is limited so that men are not made vile.
However, God uses this same Hebrew word in Isaiah 16:14. We read there:
But now the LORD hath spoken, saying, Within three
years, as the years of an hireling, and the glory of
The Hebrew word translated seem vile in Deuteronomy 25:3 is translated contemned in Isaiah 16:14.
How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
In Revelation 18:7 God is talking about the unsaved church people, which are called a harlot. She has glorified herself.
Putting Isaiah 16:14 and Revelation 18:7 together, God is saying that on Judgment Day, He will contemn or make vile the glory of the unsaved (represented by Moab), which includes the unsaved people themselves because the unsaved glory in themselves. God is saying that He will make vile or contemn the unsaved at Judgment Day.
But, for controversy between men or civil issues, men are not to be made vile according to Deuteronomy 25:1-3.
So, when a civil law is broken, there are actually two controversies.
There is the controversy between men which is the civil law. The law that men have established will bring punishment against the one who breaks the civil law. However, Deuteronomy 25:1-3 indicates that there is a limit to the amount of punishment for breaking that civil law.
However, breaking a civil law is also violation of Romans 13:1-4 and other passages that require that man obey his government. Disobeying the Bible is sin, which is a controversy between man and God. Isaiah 16:14 and Revelation 18:7 teach that God will contemn or make vile the unsaved at Judgment Day because of their sin. Therefore, we can know that Deuteronomy 25:1-3 is not talking about the punishment for sin. It is talking about a controversy between men which is a civil law.
Lets consider your statement, The verse in Ezekiel indicates that ultimately it is God who is the authority who administers punishments through governments although he appoints governments to deal with the matters.
The punishments for the violation of civil laws are determined and carried out by the secular governments themselves based upon authority given to them by God. The punishment for breaking civil laws comes from the secular governments.
44:24 is talking about Gods servants, the true believers, carrying out their
service in the
Romans 13:4 says that the secular governments are the minister of God. They work for God to maintain law and order. The laws of secular governments cover a controversy between men. Those laws are limited by Deuteronomy 25:1-3.
Gods punishment for sin is ultimately administered directly by God to the unsaved. Sin is a controversy between man and God. By combining Isaiah 16:14 with Revelation 18:7, we learn that God teaches that He will make man vile because of his sin. The punishment for sin is not covered by Deuteronomy 25:1-3.
Regarding your point Therefore if a person is guilty of a mistake with his fellowmen it is still considered a sin against God, yes that is true.
There are actual two laws broken in that case; the civil law setup and administered by the secular government, and the law of God, as indicated in Romans 13:1-4.
Deuteronomy 25:1-3 limits the punishment the civil law can bring for that mistake. However, in Isaiah 16:14 and Revelation 18:7 God says that He will make the unsaved vile for the sin connected with any action.
For example, if someone runs a stop sign. The penalty assessed by the secular government might be $100. That is the punishment by the secular government. However, breaking that secular law is also sin, according to Romans 13:1-4. The unsaved person must pay for that sin also.
There is more information on Deuteronomy 25:1-3 in the study at this link:
Lets consider your next point starting with If a person is saved or is an elect of God it only means that it was God's mercy that he was selected from
We tend to think that somehow the unsaved are victims of Gods elective program. We may think to some degree that those that remain unsaved are under the wrath of God because they were not elected by God and they are victims of that.
However, according to the Bible, we are under the wrath of God not because of any action or lack of action by God. Rather, we are under the wrath of God because we sin and we will not turn to God.
God makes this point forcefully in Romans 1:18-3:19. I encourage the reading of this passage so that we get Gods perspective on mankind.
In Romans 1:18-32 God uses many strong words to insist that He has made Himself known to all mankind. God insists that all mankind through creation know that there is a God to whom they must answer. Also, God uses many words in that passage indicating that unsaved man suppresses the truth about God.
In Romans 2:1-15, God insists that mankind knows about the judgment of God. He knows that judgment is a just action of a just God and that mankind has a conscience that convicts him that he is guilty before God.
In Romans 3:9-19 God insists that mankind is very sinful and that he will not seek after God. He will not turn to God.
In Romans 1:18-3:19 and other passages, God gives His perspective on the situation. Gods perspective is a lot different than ours.
Gods perspective is that mankind knows there is a God and yet he is very active in his rebellion against God. Man has a conscience and knows that he is guilty, yet mankind insists on continuing in his sin and will not come to God.
God does not exclude babies from this discussion. In Psalm 58, God includes babies as being sinners like adults are sinners.
We do not see it that way, but God has the correct perspective on the situation. We have a sin-tainted perspective.
Therefore, we can get the idea that the unsaved are somehow victims because they were not elected by God. But, God views the situation a lot differently. He views us all as knowing about God and yet willfully rebelling against God and refusing to come to God.
You mentioned 3 attributes of God: LOVE, MERCY AND JUSTICE.
God has shown much love and mercy towards mankind throughout the 13,023 years of the duration of the world. However, the Bible teaches that there will be no mercy for the unsaved at Judgment Day. The study below examines the question of if there will be some mercy for the unsaved at Judgment Day:
God actually says that He hates the unsaved in Psalm 5:5, 11:5, Malachi 1:3 and Romans 9:13. We dont read any verses about God loving the unsaved.
You also mentioned JUST or justice. This is the point above. We can get the idea that God is not just for electing some and not others. However, we should keep in mind Gods perspective on the situation as we read about in Romans 1:18-3:19 and other passages. God views the situation a lot differently than we do. We have to remember that God is just and perfect in all that He does even if what the Bible teaches does not always seem just to us. The problem is that we have sin-tainted minds.
We want to keep in mind what we read in Romans 9:15:
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
God is just in all that He does. The problem is that we are sinful and very limited in our understanding so what the Bible teaches may appear unjust at times.
In your next point, you talked about babies being under the same wrath as mass murders.
This does not mean that they will receive the same degree of punishment. For example, we read in Luke 12:47-48:
47 And that servant, which knew his lords will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
The more we know about the Bible, the more guilty and more stripes we will receive.
This agrees with what we read in Matthew 11:22:
But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for
The Bible defines its own words. The word tolerable is always used to indicate conscious experience. It is never used in a verse in which unconscious bones or ashes could fulfill it.
Matthew 11:22 Jesus is faulting the cities in which He preached for their
non-repentance. Judgment Day will be more tolerable or more
There is more information on this topic in the study at the link below.
Please search for phrase Six verses declare
So, the more we know about the Bible, the more stripes or affliction we will receive, if we are not saved.
Also, we read in Matthew 12:36:
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
This verse does not describe the nature of the punishment for sin, but it teaches that there is accountability for every sinful word that we speak. So, a baby has not had as much opportunity to speak sinful words as an adult.
The degree of the punishment can vary with the amount of sin. So, the punishment of a baby does not have to be the same as a mass murderer.
There more information on the question about babies in the study at this link:
Thank you again for your feedback. I really do appreciate any feedback that you have on the material on this site.