FEEDBACK: IS ANNIHILATION TRUE?
12/18/09
We
appreciate feedback on the studies posted on this website. It helps us to see
if there is anything on this website that does not agree with the Bible.
Below is an email received from a viewer of this
website and OUR response FOLLOWS
The
viewer’s email is in “italics”.
Our response is in regular text.
VIEWER’S
EMAIL:
Please correct me if I
misunderstand:
1. you conclude that are just 2
verses, containing "for ever and ever" [a key phrase for you] that
convince you that the damned will be tormented for all eternity [into
infinity].
2. you are investigating
"torment" and "smoke" from these 2 verses and will share
this.
3. on a related point, Mr Camping
has taught for a year or 2 that there are no Scriptures that describe a
"resurrection" of the damned to life, so they can receive this
literal perpetual torment...
If you've replied to this claim
of Mr C, can you "cut and paste" this reply, so we can see it?
4. Like most, I believed and
taught eternal torment for decades - Mr C for 50++ years publicly, but now I
see how very thin the Bible basis is for this teaching....I now see that the
punishment for sin is not "torture" but death...Thank you.
BELOW
IS OUR RESPONSE TO THE ABOVE EMAIL
Thank
you for the opportunity to clarify what I believe the Bible teaches.
I
will respond to your points in order.
You
wrote “1. you conclude that are just 2 verses, containing "for ever and
ever" [a key phrase for you] that convince you that the damned will be
tormented for all eternity [into infinity].”
The
phrase “for ever and ever” that we find in Revelation 19:3 & 20:10
is made up of a 5 word Greek phrase. It could be literally translated like this
“into the ages of the ages”.
I
believe we have talked about this 5 word Greek phrase in previous emails, so I
will keep my comments here short.
The
other emails in which we discussed this subject can be found at these links:
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/fbnr1.htm
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/fbnr2.htm
We
know that God defines words and phrases by how He uses them in the Bible.
God
uses this same exact 5 word Greek phrase in 18 other verses; all with the same
exact spelling. In each of those verses, God is speaking of Himself, His glory
or His Kingdom. These are things that go on forevermore. There is no
possibility that God, His glory or His Kingdom could end.
With
18 verses in which this phrase must mean forevermore, God has provided firm
definition that the “for ever and ever” in Revelation 19:30 & 20:10
must truly be forevermore.
This
material is covered in great detail in the study at this link:
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/forever1.htm
However,
you asked another question: Do I believe that these 2 verses teach that the
unsaved will be consciously afflicted forevermore?
I
do believe that these two verses teach that the unsaved will be consciously
afflicted forevermore. In addition, there are other verses and passages that
teach the same truth.
There
are also more verses and passages that teach that the unsaved, who are
presently sleeping in the dust, will awake to consciousness at Judgment Day.
Some
of these verses and passages are developed in the studies below:
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/proofs1.htm
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/proofs2.htm
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/eternal1.htm
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/everyknee.htm
I
have spent the most time studying the verses and arguments used to teach
annihilation. The results are summarized in the studies at this link:
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/response_1
There
are more than 20 studies at this link that examine the verses and arguments
used to teach annihilation. If anyone can find any weaknesses in the arguments
on this response page, I would like to know about it.
You
wrote “2. you are investigating "torment" and "smoke" from
these 2 verses and will share this.”
I
have finished my investigations of these words a while ago and have posted
studies that involve these words at these links:
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/eternal1.htm
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/forever1.htm
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/lakeoffire1.htm
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/proofs1.htm
In
order to keep this email shorter, these links are given, rather than giving a
detailed discussion here.
Is
there a particular question that you have about these words, “torment” and
“smoke”?
God
defines the family of Greek words translated “torment” as signifying some form
of conscious affliction. We see this by how God uses this family of words in
the Bible. This family is always used to signify conscious affliction of some
kind.
Therefore,
we know that when the Bible talks about the unsaved being “tormented” it cannot
refer to bones being cast forth upon the earth. According to how God defines
this family of words, when God says that the unsaved are “tormented” it means
that they are enduring a conscious affliction. The way God has defined this
word will not allow it to be speaking of unconscious bones.
Regarding
the word “smoke”, we read in Revelation 19:3:
And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke
rose up for ever and ever.
God
talks about “her smoke” in Revelation 19:3. It is the smoke of the
unsaved. The “her” refers to the unsaved.
God
is tying back to verses like Jeremiah 5:14 where we read:
Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye
speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people
wood, and it shall devour them.
In
Jeremiah 5:14 God talks about the unsaved as “wood” and His wrath as a “fire”.
This also ties into Hebrews 12:29.
The
unsaved are not literally “wood” just like Jesus is not literally a “lamb”
(John 1:29). Rather, the unsaved are represented by “wood” that is put
in the “fire” of God’s wrath. That produces “smoke”.
Once
the “wood” is gone, the smoke stops ascending. However, in Revelation
19:3 God says that “her smoke” never stops ascending. This means that
the wood, the unsaved, are forever in the fire of God’s wrath.
This
material is covered in more detail in the study at this link:
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/eternal1.htm
God
teaches many important truths through analogies; truths like: the end of the
church age, the gift of salvation is completely without man’s work, the new
heaven and new earth, and the nature of God’s punishment.
This
is a very brief summary, but these two words are covered in more detail in the
links given above. If you have a particular verse that disagrees with the
conclusions above, I would be happy to discuss it.
To
respond to your next points, I would like to combine them and address them
together. You wrote “3. on a related point, Mr Camping has taught for a
year or 2 that there are no Scriptures that describe a "resurrection"
of the damned to life, so they can receive this literal perpetual torment...
If you've replied to this claim
of Mr C, can you "cut and paste" this reply, so we can see it?
4. Like most, I believed and
taught eternal torment for decades - Mr C for 50++ years publicly, but now I
see how very thin the Bible basis is for this teaching....I now see that the
punishment for sin is not "torture" but death...”
First,
I would like to address the words “life” and “death” for mankind. You made
reference to them in both points 3 and 4, so we will address them together.
In
our minds, we have firmly established definitions that “life = consciousness or
existence” and “death = cessation of existence or a corpse”. This is how we use
these words in our everyday speech.
These
definitions are pretty well set in our minds. That is why people say “you must
be resurrected to some kind of life in order to suffer”.
What
they are saying is “you must be resurrected to some kind of consciousness in
order to suffer.”, because in our minds “life = consciousness”.
However,
as we read the Bible, we run into verses that are do not fit those definitions.
We
read in Genesis 2:17 that Adam really did die the day he sinned. God used the
Hebrew word for “die” two times in that verse so that we would know that God
means that Adam really did die the day that he sinned (Genesis 41:32).
However,
Adam did not cease to exist in anyway the day he sinned.
So,
to fit our definition of death, we say that Adam “died spiritually”, even
though the Bible never uses this language. God simply says that Adam died.
The
term “spiritually dead” means that man’s spirit is dead. However, the Bible
teaches that unsaved man still has a spirit (Psalm 78:8, Daniel 2:1,3, 1 Peter
3:19). So, the term “spiritually dead” does not fit our definition either
because unsaved man still has a spirit.
As
a result, we change Genesis 2:17 to say other things, like “dead to life in
Christ”, “lost his eternal life”, etc.
But,
God says that Adam died the day he sinned, which does not fit our definition of
death.
Then,
we run into other verses that indicate that unsaved man is already dead (Proverbs
21:16, Matthew 8:22, Luke 9:60, John 5:25, Romans 7:9-11, Ephesians 2:1,5,
Colossians 2:13, 1 Peter 4:6, Revelation 20:12).
There
are quite a few verses that teach that unsaved man is already dead. Yet,
unsaved man still has a spirit and a body. He has not ceased to exist in any
way. These verses do not fit our definition that “death = cessation of
existence or a corpse”.
Now,
let’s change subjects for a moment and look at how God uses the word “life” in
connection with mankind.
In
our minds “life = conscious existence”.
However,
God calls Himself “life” (John 11:25, 14:6).
We
normally think of life as existence, however, God says that He is “life”.
We
read a follow on verse in 1 John 5:12:
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that
hath not the Son of God hath not life.
In
1 John 5:12, God takes the next step.
In
John 11:25 & 14:6, God said that He is “life”. Then, in 1 John 5:12, God
says that for mankind “life” has to do with man’s relationship to God, who is
“life”.
Notice
how God says it twice in 1 John 5:12. God is placing special emphasis by
repeating Himself.
1
John 5:12 does not agree with how we think about life, namely that “life =
conscious existence”. Rather, it is teaching that “life” for mankind has to do
with his relationship to God, who is “life”.
With
this learning, we can understand other verses.
We
read in John 6:53:
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto
you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no
life in you.
John
6:53 tells us that until we become saved, God says “ye have no life in you”.
How
can that be? We have no existence in us?
No.
Rather, we do not have God, who is “life”, in us. In John 6:53, God is
affirming that “life” for mankind has to do with his relationship with God.
When
I have talked to some people about these verses, they will tell me that we have
to change the verse to say “life in Christ” or “spiritual life” or something
else. However, we cannot come to truth by changing verses. People change “faith
of Christ” into “faith in Christ”. We cannot do that.
Let’s
consider these verses:
Matthew
18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot
offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for
thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two
feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Matthew
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck
it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life
with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew
19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest
thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if
thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mark
9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it
off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to
go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark
9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it
off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be
cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
The
Bible teaches that when we become saved, we “enter into life” (Matthew
18:8,9, Matthew 19:17, Mark 9:43, 45).
How
is it that we “enter into existence” upon salvation? We already exist,
both in spirit and body.
But,
we do “enter into God” in the sense that He now indwells us and has
provided many blessings and promises for us.
When
God saves us, He gives us “life” (John 5:40, 6:33, 20:31, 1 John 5:16).
Does
God give us “existence”? No. Rather, God gives us God Himself, who is “life”.
When
God saves us, God “makes us alive” or “quickens” us (Psalm 80:18,
199:25, 37, 40, 50, 88, 93, 107, 144, 149, 154, 156, 159, 143:11, Ephesians
2:5).
Does
God “make us exist” upon salvation? No.
Rather,
God gives us Himself, who is “life”, indwelling. In that sense, we have been
“made alive”.
I
could give more verses like these, but I don’t want this email to be too long.
The links that are given below have more verses that teach the same truths.
The
point is that God gives many verses that teach that God Himself is “life” and
that “life” for mankind has to do with his relationship with God, who is
“life”.
These
verses agree with the definition that “death = separation”, specifically from
God, who is “life”.
When
Adam sinned, he died according to the Bible. Adam did not cease to exist at
all. Rather, Adam became separated from God, who is “life”. Adam was no longer
indwelt by God nor energized by God, to use the language of Philippians
2:12-13.
The
understanding that for mankind “death = separation” helps to explain other
difficult verses.
We
read in 1 John 3:14:
We know that we have passed from death unto life,
because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in
death.
God
says that the unsaved “abideth in death”.
How do the unsaved “abide in non-existence”?
The
unsaved exist just like the believers exist. However, the unsaved “abideth in separation
from God”. They are not indwelt by
God nor are they energized by God.
We
read two more verses:
John
5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He
that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,
and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
1
John 3:14 We know that we have passed
from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his
brother abideth in death.
When
we become saved we have “passed from death unto life” (John 5:24, 1 John
3:14).
How
have we “passed from non-existence to existence”? We have not.
But,
we have “passed from separation from God to indwelling by God”. That is true.
Even
after salvation, our body is still “dead” as we read in these two
verses:
Romans
8:10:
And if Christ be in you, the body is
dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
1
Corinthians 15:29:
Else what shall they do which are baptized
for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the
dead?
1
Corinthians 15 is talking about resurrection of the believer’s body. Verse 29
talks about present state of the believer’s body, which is “dead”.
Our
body has not ceased to exist in anyway.
Before
salvation, we are “dead” in both body and spirit. That is, we are both
“spiritually dead” and “physically dead”. We were separated from God, who is
“life”. We were not indwelt by God nor were we energized by God.
Upon
salvation, our spirit has “passed from death unto life” (John 5:24, 1
John 3:14). It was no longer separated from God.
However,
our body remains “dead”. It is still separated from God, who is “life”.
At the Rapture, our body will “pass from death unto life”. That is the
resurrection of life to which you referred earlier.
In
Romans 6:2 & 11, we read that the true believer is “dead to sin”.
If
“death = cessation of existence”, how has the true believer ceased to exist in
anyway?
However,
when we understand that for mankind, “death = separation”, then Romans 6:2
& 11 fit.
The
true believer is “separated from sin” in that God is indwelling him and
energizing him to walk in God’s law. It is not a complete separation because
the true believer still struggles with sin, but nevertheless, the true believer
is separated from sin.
In
Colossians 2:20, we read that the true believer is “dead with Christ from
the rudiments of the world”.
How
has the true believer “ceased to exist with Christ”?
Colossians
2:20 is not written in the past tense, looking back to the payment of sins. It
is present tense.
The
true believer has not ceased to exist in anyway.
Rather,
the true believer is “with Christ” and being “with Christ”, he is
separated “from the rudiments of the world”.
The
“rudiments of the world” have to do with the doctrines of men. Now that
we are saved, we are free from those. We are “separated” from those.
We
can understand why Colossians 3:3 says “ye are dead”.
The
true believers have not ceased to exist in anyway, but as we learned in Romans
6:2 & 11 and Colossians 2:20, the true believer is separated from sin and
from the “rudiments of the world”.
The
statement “ye are dead” means that “ye are separated”. The true believer
is separated from sin in that he does not sin like he used to sin. He is
separated from the rudiments of the world or the commandments of men.
These
are some of the verses that teach that God Himself is “life” and that “life”
for mankind has to do with his relationship with God and “death” is separation.
The
above verses will not agree with our traditional thinking that “death =
cessation of existence or a corpse” and “life = existence”.
The
next big question is: What about the corpse?
The
corpse is actually a body sleeping in the dust.
There
are many verses in which God talks about both the saved and the unsaved
“sleeping with their fathers”. They lose consciousness in their bodies and it
returns to the dust.
We
have said that a body “sleeping in the dust” is a synonym for death, but that
does not agree with the Bible.
For
example, we read in Romans 8:10 that for the true believer, the “body is
dead”. His body is dead, that is, separated from God, who is “life”,
but it is not yet sleeping in the dust.
A
big thing that confuses the issue is that when man leaves this world, two
distinct things happen. We normally do not see the distinction but combine
these two things together in our minds.
The
two things are:
1.
His body fails and there is no consciousness in his body. The Bible talks about
that as a body sleeping in the dust.
2.
He is separated from God who is “life”. That is, he dies.
In
Acts 17:28 we read:
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as
certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
This
verse is talking about all mankind; both saved and unsaved. The “him” is
God.
Acts
17:28 teaches that in this world, all mankind, including the unsaved, have God
to some degree. They are “in him”. They “move” in Him and they “have
their being” in Him.
Unsaved
man in this world is not completely separated from God. He still has God to
some degree according to Acts 17:28 and other verses.
However,
when unsaved man’s body fails, it sleeps in the dust. There is no consciousness
in his body. At that point, unsaved man no longer “moves” in God.
Corpses do not move.
Acts
17:28 no longer applies to him. He is separated from God. He no longer “moves”
in God and no longer has his being in God and is no longer “in him”.
When
his body fails and sleeps in the dust, man is separated from God, who is
“life”. That is, he dies.
These
are two different things that happen to man when he leaves this world, but
normally we blend them together. We do not see the distinction.
Part
of the reason that we do not see these two distinct events is because man
focuses upon what he sees with his eyes, which is the corpse, a body sleeping
in the dust. But, God focuses upon what is important, which is man’s
relationship to God. That is, God focuses upon man’s separation from God, which
is death.
That
is why we read so much about death in the Bible. God focuses upon what is
important, which is man’s relationship to God, who is “life”.
However,
man focuses upon what he sees with his eyes. Man focuses upon the corpse, which
is a body sleeping in the dust.
We
confuse these two things. The corpse is a body sleeping in the dust. Death is
the separation from God who is “life”.
Unsaved
man that is sleeping in the dust will awake to consciousness (Daniel 12:2, 2
Kings 4:31). That is, there will be consciousness again in his body. But, he
will not have God, who is “life”. He will remain completely separated from God
who is “life”. That is why the word “life” is not used in connection with the
unsaved in eternity future.
The
lack of the presence of the word “life” in connection with the unsaved in
eternity future means that they will not have God, who is “life”, in any sense.
The return to consciousness in the body has to do with the awaking from sleep
and that happens at Judgment Day.
This
material is covered in more detail in these studies:
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/life1.htm
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/dust1.htm
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/proofs1.htm
With
this basis, I can respond in a more specific way to your points.
You
wrote “there are no Scriptures that describe a "resurrection" of the
damned to life”
When
people say that statement they are thinking “there are no Scriptures that
describe a "resurrection" of the damned to conscious existence”
We
think “life = conscious existence”, so we say that the unsaved will not be
resurrected to any kind of consciousness.
However,
many verses have been given that teach that “life” for mankind is not conscious
existence, but rather “life” for mankind has to do with his relationship with
God.
When
the believer’s body is “resurrected to life”, it means that he will now have
God, who is “life”, indwelling his body. It is parallel to when he was saved,
his spirit “passed from death unto life”, that is “passed from
separation from God to indwelling by God”.
At
the resurrection of the last day, his body will finally “pass from death unto
life”. There will be no more separation from God in either his body or spirit.
The
fact that the unsaved will awake to consciousness is given by Daniel 12:2 and
other verses. The Hebrew word translated “awake” is always used to indicate
some kind of conscious activity. It is never used to refer to something that
does not require conscious activity.
In
addition, God says that an unconscious corpse is not “awake” using this same
Hebrew word (2 Kings 4:31).
There
are many other proofs of the conscious awaking of the unsaved at Judgment Day.
I don’t want to list them here because this email would get even longer.
Some
of the proofs are given at these links:
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/proofs1.htm
http://www.isannihilationtrue.com/proofs2.htm
Let’s
go back to your statement, “there are no Scriptures that describe a
"resurrection" of the damned to life”.
Yes,
when the unsaved awake to consciousness, they will be completely separated from
God, who is “life”. They will not have any “life”, that is any connection to
God. But, they will be conscious.
You
wrote “I now see that the punishment for sin is not ‘torture’ but death”
When
we say “death”, we think that “death = cessation of existence”.
However,
that definition will not agree with many verses in the Bible. Rather, the
definition that will agree with all verses is that “death = separation” from
God.
Yes.
The “wages of sin is death”. That is the unsaved will be eternally and
completely separated from God. They will awake to consciousness, but will still
be dead, that is separated from God who is “life”.
As
long as we hold to the definitions that “life = existence” and “death =
cessation of existence or a corpse” we can teach annihilation.
However,
these definitions do not agree with the Bible. The Biblical definitions are God
is “life” and that for mankind, “life” has to do with his relationship with God
and “death” is separation from God.
You
wrote “I see how very thin the Bible basis” is for the teaching of eternal suffering.
If
you look at the links given above, you will see that there are quite a few
verses that teach a conscious awaking of the unsaved at Judgment Day.
Thank
you for this opportunity.