FEEDBACK: DEATH AND DESTRUCTION OF THE UNSAVED #3
We appreciate feedback on the studies posted on this website. It helps us to see if there is anything on this website that does not agree with the Bible.
Below is THE THIRD ROUND OF DISCUSSION ON THE SUBJECT OF THE “THE DEATH AND DESTRUCTION OF THE UNSAVED”.
THE READER’S FEEDBACK IS IN ITALICS. OUR RESPONSE IS IN ALL CAPITALS AND .
[THANK YOU FOR THE FEEDBACK AND FOR CONTINUING TO
DIALOG WITH ME. I REALLY APPRECIATE IT AND HAVE THOUGHT A
I would like to offer additional feedback on your study—much of which is focused on Romans 8:10. Let me begin with a summary of your study below.
In this study you define the word "death" as separation from God. In this regard, you surmise that Romans 8:10 teaches that believers and unbelievers are dead in both body and spirit. You also believe that mankind died in body and spirit after Adam fell into sin in the Garden of Eden. Based on this belief, you conclude that death cannot mean annihilation/destruction since Adam was not annihilated after he died spiritually.
[YOU SAID ADAM “died spiritually”. GOD JUST SAID ADAM DIED. I AM NOT AWARE OF ANY VERSE THAT SAYS HE ONLY DIED SPIRITUALLY.]
[IF “DEATH = CESSATION OF EXISTENCE” AND WE AGREE THAT AT LEAST MAN’S SPIRIT IS DEAD (YOU JUST SAID ADAM DIED SPIRITUALLY), THEN WHY DOES UNSAVED MAN STILL HAVE A SPIRIT? (1 PETER 3:19, PSALM 78:8, DANIEL 2:1,3). IF DEATH IS ANNIHILATION AND MAN’S SPIRIT IS DEAD, WHY HAS NOT HIS SPIRIT BEEN ANNIHILATED?]
I disagree with your assessment of Romans 8:10. I believe the context of Romans 8:10 shows that the “dead body” is focused on those whom Christ indwells. Notice the phrase “in you” is found four times in verses 9-11 and refers to the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. Nothing in this passage suggests that the dead body is separated from God.
[OK. LET’S JUST TALK ABOUT THE TRUE BELIEVERS FOR A MOMENT.
ONE THING THAT WE LEARN FROM ROMANS 8:10 IS THAT DEATH IS NOT A CESSATION OF EXISTENCE BECAUSE THE TRUE BELIEVER’S BODY IS ALREADY DEAD, YET HIS BODY STILL EXISTS.]
[GOING BACK TO YOUR OTHER POINT ABOUT “Nothing in this passage suggests that the dead body is separated from God”, ROMANS 8:10 DOES NOT DEFINE WHAT IT MEANS THAT THE BODY OF THE TRUE BELIEVER IS DEAD. WE FIND THAT OUT BY SEARCHING OTHER PASSAGES IN THE BIBLE.]
[ROMANS 7:18 TOGETHER WITH ROMANS 8:9 SHOW THAT THE BODY OF THE TRUE BELIEVER IS STILL SEPARATED FROM GOD. ROMANS 7:18 TEACHES THAT NO “GOOD” DWELLS IN THE FLESH OR THE BODY OF THE TRUE BELIEVER. THE GREEK WORD FOR “GOOD THING” IS JUST THE WORD “GOOD”. GOD IS THE IMPORTANT “GOOD” (MATTHEW 19:17) THAT DOES NOT DWELL IN THE TRUE BELIEVER’S BODY.
USING THE SAME GREEK WORD “DWELL” THAT WE FIND IN ROMANS 7:18, GOD SAYS IN ROMANS 8:9 THAT HE DOES INDWELL THE TRUE BELIEVER. HOWEVER, IN ROMANS 8:9, GOD DOES NOT SAY IF HE INDWELLS THE BODY OR SPIRIT OR BOTH.
BUT, WHEN WE COMBINE ROMANS 7:18 WITH ROMANS 8:9, WE LEARN THAT GOD INDWELLS ONLY THE SPIRIT OF THE TRUE BELIEVER, BUT NOT YET THE BODY. NO “GOOD” INDWELLS THE BODY OF THE TRUE BELIEVER ACCORDING TO ROMANS 7:18. GOD IS THE “GOOD”.]
[FROM THE PHRASE “IN YOU” WE CANNOT TELL IF GOD MEANS IN YOUR BODY OR IN YOUR SPIRIT OR BOTH. WE NEED TO CHECK OTHER VERSES. THAT IS WHY ROMANS 7:18 TOGETHER WITH ROMANS 8:9 IS VERY HELPFUL. GOD SAYS THAT HE INDWELLS THE TRUE BELIEVER, BUT NOT IN HIS BODY. THAT GIVES US THE ANSWER THAT THE “IN YOU” REFERS ONLY TO THE TRUE BELIEVER’S SPIRIT.
THAT IS WHY THE LANGUAGE OF “in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing” OF ROMANS 7:18 IS VERY HELPFUL. PAUL AS AN EXAMPLE OF A TRUE BELIEVER, SAYS, UNDER THE INSPIRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, THAT “in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing”. THROUGH ROMANS 7:18, GOD IS GIVING DEFINITION TO THE “IN YOU” PHRASES FOUND IN ROMANS 8:9-11. THEY DO NOT INCLUDE THE BODY (OR FLESH) OF THE TRUE BELIEVER. ]
[THAT IS WHY SIN DEVELOPS IN THE BODY OF THE TRUE BELIEVER.]
Below, we will discover that death means destruction not simply separation.
[DOES DEATH MEAN DESTRUCTION?
ACCORDING TO GENESIS 2:17, ADAM DIED THE DAY HE SINNED. EPHESIANS 2:1,5, 1 PETER 4:6 AND OTHER VERSES TEACH THAT THE UNSAVED ARE ALREADY DEAD. HOWEVER, HAS UNSAVED MAN CEASED TO EXIST IN EITHER HIS BODY OR HIS SPIRIT?
WE KNOW THAT UNSAVED MAN HAS A BODY. DOES UNSAVED MAN STILL HAVE A SPIRIT AS WELL?
YES, UNSAVED MAN STILL HAS A SPIRIT. WE SAW THAT IN 4 VERSES IN A PREVIOUS DIALOG (PSALM 78:8, DANIEL 2:1,3, 1 PETER 3:19).
SO, IF DEATH IS CESSATION OF EXISTENCE, IN WHAT PART OF HIS BEING DID ADAM CEASE TO EXIST? IN WHAT PART OF HIS BEING HAS UNSAVED MAN ALREADY CEASED TO EXIST?]
[WHEN WE READ THE WORD “DESTRUCTION”, WE OFTEN THINK IN OUR MINDS THAT “DESTRUCTION = ANNIHILATION”.
MAYBE, WE ARE ENCOURAGED TO THINK THIS WAY BY HOW JOSHUA OR OTHERS “DESTROYED” THE ENEMY IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. HOWEVER, WE ALSO READ ABOUT PEOPLE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT BEING “HEALED” AND PEOPLE EATING MANNA AND DRINKING WATER OUT OF THE ROCK. WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THESE HISTORICAL EVENTS ARE ILLUSTRATIONS OF GOSPEL TRUTH.
WHEN THE PEOPLE DRANK THE WATER OUT OF THE ROCK AND ATE THE MANNA, THAT WAS A PICTURE OF SALVATION, BUT NOT THE ACTUAL SALVATION ITSELF. MOST OF THOSE PEOPLE NEVER BECAME SAVED.
LIKEWISE, WHEN WE READ ABOUT DESTRUCTIONS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, THOSE WERE ALSO PICTURES OF GOSPEL TRUTH.
IN THE LAST STUDY, I MENTIONED THE REFERENCE TO THE
THERE IS MORE INFORMATION ON THE DESTRUCTION OF
LIKE ALL WORDS IN THE BIBLE, WE MUST SEARCH THE BIBLE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT GOD MEANS BY THE “DESTRUCTION” OF THE UNSAVED, FOLLOWING THE RULE OF 1 CORINTHIANS 2:13.
I WILL GIVE ONE EXAMPLE HERE.
IN DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68, GOD USES A COMMON VERB
TRANSLATED “DESTROY” 7 TIMES. IT IS STRONG’S 8045, IF YOU WANT TO CHECK IT OUT.
IN THESE 7 VERSES, GOD LEAVES THE VERB IN THE “INFINITIVE” TENSE WHICH IS A
LITTLE UNUSUAL IN HEBREW. THE “INFINITE” IS NOT THE PAST TENSE. IT
DESCRIBES A STATE OF
IN DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68, WE READ MANY WORDS OF CONSCIOUS AFFLICTION. THIS PASSAGE IS DIRECTED TO ANYONE WHO HAS SINNED THROUGHOUT TIME. IN DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68, GOD IS DESCRIBING AN ON-GOING “DESTROYING” OF CONSCIOUS AFFLICTION THAT ALL OF THE UNSAVED THROUGHOUT TIME MUST ENDURE.
A MORE DETAILED STUDY HAS BEEN DONE ON THIS CHAPTER AND IT IS AVAILABLE AT THE LINK:
TO FIND THE DEUTERONOMY 28 STUDY QUICKLY, SEARCH FOR THE PHRASE “DEUTERONOMY 28”.
GOD ALSO USES THE HEBREW WORD “ABAD”, WHICH IS TRANSLATED “PERISH” OR “DESTROY” 4 TIMES IN DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68 TO DESCRIBE AN ON-GOING “PERISHING” OF CONSCIOUS AFFLICTION.
THERE IS ANOTHER STUDY THAT EXAMINES HOW THE BIBLE USES WORDS LIKE “DESTROY”, “CONSUME”, “PERISH”, ETC. THE LINK IS:
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in <1722> you <5213>. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in <1722> you <5213>, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in <1722> you <5213>, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in <1722> you <5213>.
Below I will address some of the key issues from your last response.
[AS DISCUSSED ABOVE, WE CANNOT TELL FROM THE PHRASE “IN YOU”, IF GOD MEANS THE SPIRIT OR THE BODY OR BOTH. WE HAVE TO LEARN THAT FROM OTHER PASSAGES.]
you wrote: If we apply the phrase “body is dead” only to the believers, it still does not change the arguments about the biblical definition of “life” and “death” for mankind. Romans 8:10 says the believer’s body is “dead”. His body still exists, but as I will explain more below, his body is separated from God who is “life”.
When we examine Romans 8:10 we don’t see any language about true believers being separated from God. In fact, throughout Romans 8 God emphasizes the fact that the Spirit of God/Christ is “in you”. The phrase “in you” refers to the believer’s mortal body.
[PLEASE SEE DISCUSSION ABOVE ABOUT THE PHRASE “IN YOU”. WHEN WE FACTOR IN ROMANS 7:18, THE “IN YOU” REFERS TO THE BELIEVER’S SPIRIT.]
In Romans 6:12, we read that believers will not allow sin to reign over their mortal bodies in order that they might not obey the lusts of the flesh. When we examine the phrase “mortal body” in Romans 6:12 we find that it is identified with the “old man” in us. This old man is crucified/destroyed to keep us from obeying the lusts of the flesh (Romans 6:6-9, Ephesians 4:22, Colossians 3:9).
[YES, YOU ARE CORRECT. WE ARE TO RULE OVER OUR BODIES AND PUT DOWN SIN IN THEM. HOWEVER, THAT DOES HELP WITH THE QUESTION AS TO IF GOD INDWELLS OUR BODIES BEFORE THE RAPTURE.
GOD INDWELLS OUR SPIRIT AND WORKS IN
Of course, in the larger sense, Christ was crucified/destroyed in order to make full atonement/payment for sin. In this regard, the payment for sin is the destruction of both body and soul in hell (Matthew 10:28).
That is the meaning of death.
[WE READ THE WORD “DESTROY” IN MATTHEW 10:28. MAYBE
PEOPLE AUTOMATICALLY THINK THAT “DESTROY = ANNIHILATION”. HOWEVER, WE HAVE TO
LET THE BIBLE DEFINE IT’S OWN WORDS. THERE ARE A
HOWEVER, LET’S LOOK AT ONE POINT HERE.
THE GREEK WORD TRANSLATED “DESTROY” IN MATTHEW 10:28 IS THE SAME GREEK WORD THAT IS TRANSLATED “PERISH” IN JOHN 3:16. IT IS COMMONLY TRANSLATED “DESTROYED” OR “PERISHED”.
IT IS ALSO TRANSLATED “LOST” IN MATTHEW 10:6, 15:24, 18:11, LUKE 19:10, 2 CORINTHIANS 4:3. THESE VERSES ARE IN THE PAST TENSE, INDICATING THAT THE UNSAVED ARE ALREADY “PERISHED” OR “DESTROYED”.
THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT THAT WE DON’T SEE QUICKLY IN OUR KJV BIBLE BECAUSE THE TRANSLATORS PUT THE WORD “LOST” IN THE ABOVE VERSES.
MATTHEW 10:6, 15:24, 18:11, LUKE 19:10 AND 2 CORINTHIANS 4:3 WOULD BE MORE PROPERLY TRANSLATED WITH “DESTROYED” OR “PERISHED”, WORDS IN THE PAST TENSE. THEY ARE IN THE PAST TENSE.
GOD USES THE WORDS “PERISHED” OR “DESTROYED” TO SPEAK OF UNSAVED MAN’S PRESENT CONDITION IN THIS WORLD. THIS IS BECAUSE HE IS SEPARATED FROM GOD WHO IS “LIFE”.
HOWEVER, GOD USES THEM AGAIN WHEN MAN IS COMPLETELY SEPARATED FROM GOD UPON DEATH FROM THIS WORLD. THEN, UNSAVED MAN NO LONGER HAS GOD LIKE HE HAS HIM ACCORDING TO ACTS 17:28.
THE POINT HERE IS THAT WE OFTEN THINK THAT “DESTRUCTION = CESSATION OF EXISTENCE” OR “PERISH = CESSATION OF EXISTENCE”, BUT WE HAVE TO CHECK OUT HOW GOD USES THESE WORDS IN THE BIBLE. ACCORDING TO THE ABOVE VERSES, UNSAVED MAN IS ALREADY “PERISHED” OR “DESTROYED”.
THE TRANSLATORS PUT THE WORD “LOST” WHICH HIDES THE MEANING. REMEMBER, THESE WORDS ARE IN THE PAST TENSE.]
[THERE IS MORE INFORMATION ON THIS AT THE LINK:
[THE ETERNAL “DESTROYING” OR “PERISHING” OF THE
UNSAVED IS DESCRIBED IN DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68 THAT USES A COMMON VERB FOR
“DESTROY” 7 TIMES AND A COMMON WORD (“ABAD”) FOR “PERISH” 4 TIMES. IN EACH
CASE, THE TENSE IS NOT PAST. THE TENSE DESCRIBES A STATE OF
[PEOPLE HAVE QUOTED MATTHEW 10:28 SAYING “destroy both soul and body in hell”. IN THEIR MINDS THEY THINK ”DESTROY = ANNIHILATION”, THEN THEY MAKE THAT SUBSTITUTION AND THINK THAT MATTHEW 10:28 SAYS TO “ANNIHILATE both soul and body in hell”.
HOWEVER, WE HAVE TO SEARCH THE BIBLE TO SEE WHAT GOD MEANS BY THE “DESTROYING” THE UNSAVED. I ALREADY POINTED OUT DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68.
ALSO, WHEN WE READ ABOUT “HELL” WE ARE DIRECTED TO
“HELL” BEING CAST INTO THE
I HAVE DEVELOPED THESE IDEAS MORE IN OTHER STUDIES ON THE WEBSITE, BUT WE WON’T GET INTO THAT HERE. THE MAIN POINT, IS THAT WE MUST SEE HOW THE BIBLE DEFINES WORDS.
THERE IS A STUDY THAT EXAMINES THE QUESTION, IS “HELL = THE GRAVE”? THE LINK TO THAT IS:
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.10 And if Christ be in you, the body is DEAD because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your MORTAL BODIES by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
[THE GREEK WORD TRANSLATED “MORTAL” IS CLOSE TO THE WORD TRANSLATED “DEATH”. IT IDENTIFIES THE BELIEVERS PRESENT BODY AS BEING “DEAD”. THIS AGREES WITH THE STATEMENT THE “BODY IS DEAD” THAT WE FIND IN ROMANS 8:10.
ROMANS 8:11 IS A FOLLOW ON PROMISE TO THE DECLARATION OF ROMANS 8:10. VERSE 11 IS A FUTURE PROMISE THAT GOD “shall also quicken your MORTAL BODIES”. HE WILL DO THAT AT THE RAPTURE.
VERSE 10 SAYS THAT THE BELIEVERS BODY IS STILL DEAD. BUT VERSE 11 HAS THE PROMISE THAT GOD WILL QUICKEN OR “MAKE ALIVE” HIS BODY. THAT HAPPENS AT THE RAPTURE. NEVERTHELESS, ROMANS 8:11 DOES NOT WEAKEN THE ARGUMENT THAT FOR THE BELIEVERS, HIS “BODY IS DEAD”. IF ANYTHING, IT STRENGTHENS THAT ARGUMENT.]
Ro 6: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be DESTROYED, that henceforth we should not serve sin.7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be DEAD indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.12 Let not sin therefore reign in your MORTAL BODY, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
[ROMANS 6 IS TALKING ABOUT PUTTING DOWN SIN IN OUR LIVES. WE SEE THAT IN VERSE 6 WHICH SAYS “… henceforth we should not serve sin.” WE ARE NOT TO LET SIN “reign in your MORTAL BODY”. HOWEVER, THAT DOES NOT INDICATE THAT GOD INDWELLS THE BELIEVER’S BODY.
WE HAVE TO CORRECTLY UNDERSTAND THE PHRASE “body of sin might be DESTROYED”. gOD IS NOT TALKING ABOUT DESTROYING OUR BODIES.
WE FIND THIS WORD TRANSLATED “DESTROYED” IN THE VERSES BELOW:
Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall <2673> their unbelief make <2673> the faith of God without effect <2673>?
Romans 3:31 Do we <2673> then make void <2673> the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect <2673>:
1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away <2673> childish things.
Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make <2673> the promise of none effect <2673>.
IN THESE PASSAGES, THIS WORD TRANSLATED “DESTROYED” IN ROMANS 6:6 IS TRANSLATED “MAKE WITHOUT EFFECT”, “MAKE VOID”, “MAKE OF NONE EFFECT”, AND “PUT AWAY”.
WE CAN UNDERSTAND THAT ROMANS 6:6 IS TELLING US THAT WE ARE TO “MAKE WITHOUT EFFECT”, “MAKE VOID”, “MAKE OF NONE EFFECT”, AND “PUT AWAY” OUR “SINFUL BODY”. THAT IS, WE ARE TO PUT DOWN SIN IN OUR BODY.
THE REASON WE HAVE THIS PROBLEM WITH OUR BODY IS BECAUSE THE “BODY IS DEAD”, THAT IS, IT IS SEPARATED FROM GOD, WHO IS “LIFE”. ]
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell.
[WE ALREADY TALKED ABOUT THE WORD “DESTROY” ABOVE.
LET’S CONSIDER THE WORD “KILL” THAT WE FIND IN MATTHEW 10:28.
GOD “KILLED” ADAM (AND THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE) THE DAY ADAM SINNED. WE THAT READ IN ROMANS 7:9-11:
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
THAT WORD “SLEW” IN ROMANS 7:11 IS THE SAME GREEK WORD TRANSLATED “KILL” IN MATTHEW 10:28.
ACCORDING TO ROMANS 7:11, GOD “KILLED” ADAM AND ALL OF MANKIND, THE DAY ADAM SINNED. ADAM DID NOT CEASE TO EXIST IN EITHER BODY OR SPIRIT. ADAM STILL HAD, AND UNSAVED MAN STILL HAS, BOTH A BODY AND A SPIRIT, EVEN THOUGH GOD HAS ALREADY “KILLED” HIM.
THE WORD “KILL” IS LIKE THE WORD “DEAD”. IT ACTUALLY MEANS TO BE SEPARATED FROM GOD WHO IS “LIFE”. THIS IS DEVELOPED MORE IN THE LIFE STUDY.
ANOTHER REFERENCE IS EZEKIEL 37:9 IN WHICH GOD REFERS TO THE ELECT UNSAVED IN THIS WORLD AS ALREADY “SLAIN”.]
You wrote: Only in our spirit have we “passed from death unto life” (John 5:24, 1 John 3:14). Salvation will not be applied to our body until the rapture. So, the body of the believer is just like body of the unsaved. both the believer’s body and the unbeliever’s body is still unsaved.
It is true that the salvation of our bodies has not been completed. It is NOT true that salvation has not been applied to our bodies. When we pass from death to life the evidence of salvation will be manifested by good fruit/works.
[YOU MENTIONED “When we pass from death to life the evidence of salvation will be manifested by good fruit/works”. IF “DEATH = CESSATION OF EXISTENCE” AND “LIFE = EXISTENCE”, HOW HAVE WE PASSED FROM “NON-EXISTENCE TO EXISTENCE” WHEN WE BECAME SAVED?
IN YOUR STATEMENTS, YOU ARE REFERRING TO THAT FACT THAT WHEN WE ARE SAVED, WE ARE TO RULE OVER OUR BODY. WE ARE TO PUT DOWN SIN IN OUR BODY AND TO DO ‘GOOD FRUIT/WORKS’ LIKE YOU SAID. I AGREE WITH THESE STATEMENTS.
HOWEVER, THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT GOD
INDWELLS OUR BODY. IT MEANS THAT WE ARE TO PUT DOWN THE SINFUL DESIRES OF OUR
BODY. GOD INDWELLS OUR SPIRIT AND WORKS IN
Moreover, the Bible indicates that the believer’s body is the
[NOTICE IN 1 CORINTHIANS 6:17 IT SAYS THAT “But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.”
NOTICE THAT GOD SAYS “one spirit”. GOD IS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE BODY OF THE TRUE BELIEVER BEING JOINED TO THE LORD, BUT THE SPIRIT. ]
When we become saved the Holy Spirit works in us to keep us from defiling our bodies (temples).
[YES. THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKS IN US,
HOWEVER, HE IS ONLY INDWELLING OUR SPIRITS, ACCORDING TO ROMANS 7:18. I MAKE
FURTHER COMMENT ABOUT OUR BODIES BEING A
In I Corinthians 6:13, God warns that He will destroy any man who
[THE FACT THAT WE ARE TO PUT DOWN SIN IN THE FLESH DOES NOT TELL US WHETHER GOD INDWELLS BOTH THE BELIEVER’S BODY AND SPIRIT OR JUST HIS SPIRIT.]
This on-going desire will
mortify the flesh will not be sustained in
the mortal bodies of the unsaved. In this regard, the bodies of believers and unbelievers are NOT a like.
[THE BODIES THEMSELVES ARE ALIKE, BUT NOW THE TRUE BELIEVER IN HIS SPIRIT DESIRES TO DO THE WILL OF GOD AND HE WILL BE BRINGING HIS BODY INTO SUBJECTION.
THEREFORE, THE ACTIONS OF THE BELIEVER’S BODY WILL BE DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF THE UNBELIEVERS, BUT THE BODIES THEMSELVES ARE THE SAME. THAT IS THE ARGUMENT OF ROMANS 7:14-23.]
1Co 6: 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.18 Flee fornication.
[NOTICE GOD PUT THE WORD “SPIRIT” IN VERSE 17. HE IS TALKING ABOUT BEING “JOINED UNTO THE LORD” IN ONE “SPIRIT”, NOT BODY.]
Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.19 What? know ye not that your BODY is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
I Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the
[1 CORINTHIANS 3:16 HELPS
“Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;”
1 CORINTHIANS 3:12 REMINDS US THAT THIS TEMPLE OF GOD WAS MADE UP OF TRUE BELIEVERS (GOLD, SILVER, PRECIOUS STONES) AND UNBELIEVERS (WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE).
THEN, IN VERSE 16, WE READ THAT “YE” ARE
THEN, THE NEXT PART OF VERSE 16 SAYS THAT “the Spirit of God dwelleth in you”.
PERSONALLY, THE SPIRIT OF GOD ONLY DWELLS IN THE TRUE BELIEVERS (ROMANS 8:9).
ALL THE CHURCH PEOPLE ARE PART OF THE “
NOW LET’S LOOK AT 1 CORINTHIANS 6:19. WE READ THERE
“What? know ye not that your
BODY is the
IN 1 CORINTHIANS 6:19 WE READ THAT THE
BODY OF THE TRUE BELIEVER IS THE
HOWEVER, DID GOD INDWELL THE
NO. GOD ONLY PERSONALLY INDWELT THE TRUE
THIS IS PARALLEL TO THE TRUE BELIEVER. THE
BODY OF THE TRUE BELIEVER IS ALSO CALLED THE
WE READ IN 1 CORINTHIANS 6:19 ABOUT THE “Holy Ghost which is in you”.
YES, THE HOLY SPIRIT IS “IN YOU”, BUT THE TERM “IN YOU” IS NOT SPECIFIC. THAT COULD REFER TO ONLY THE SPIRIT.
YOUR BODY IS ALSO THE
WE CAN KNOW THAT GOD DOES NOT INDWELL THE BODY OF THE TRUE BELIEVER BECAUSE OF THE CLEAR STATEMENT OF ROMANS 7:18, “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing …”
IF GOD INDWELLS THE BODY OF THE TRUE BELIEVER, THEN GOOD (THAT IS GOD) WOULD DWELL IN HIS BODY. BUT, ROMANS 7:18 SAYS THAT GOOD DOES NOT DWELL IN HIS BODY, HIS FLESH.
THE POINT OF THE
FACT THAT THE BELIEVER’S BODY IS THE
THE TRUE BELIEVER IS OWNED BY GOD IN HIS WHOLE PERSONALITY, BECAUSE HE WAS BOUGHT BY GOD. HE IS NOT TO LET SIN REIGN IN HIS BODY BECAUSE GOD OWNS HIM.
HOWEVER, HIS BODY HAS NOT YET “PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE”. IT IS STILL “DEAD”. IT IS NOT YET INDWELT BY GOD, WHO IS “LIFE” (JOHN 11:25, 14:6).
BUT, AT THE RAPTURE HIS BODY WILL ALSO “PASS FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE” AND NO LONGER BE “DEAD” BECAUSE GOD WILL INDWELL IT. ]
Re: When we put Romans 7:18 and 8:9 together, we find that God dwells in the true believer (Romans 8:9), but not in his body (Romans 7:18). So, that means God dwells in the spirit of the true believer. Through Romans 7:18 & 8:9, God is making this distinction.
In Romans 7, Paul is focused on the war that exists between the mind (which desires to serve the law) and flesh (which strives to break the law). When the believer is confronted by the law of God he or she must conclude that no good thing dwells in his flesh—apart from Spirit of Christ.
[IN ROMANS 7:18, GOD DID NOT SAY “no good thing dwells in his flesh—apart from Spirit of Christ.”.
GOD SAID THAT “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing”. GOD IS SAYING THAT NO GOOD THING DWELLS IN THE BELIEVER’S BODY. GOD DID NOT SAY “NO GOOD THING - APART FROM THE SPIRIT OF GOD”.
IF GOD DWELLS IN THE BODY OF THE TRUE BELIEVER, THEN A GOOD THING WOULD DWELL IN HIS FLESH. BUT GOD SAID THAT “in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing”.]
In other words, without the Holy Spirit, the flesh of the believers will serve the "law of sin".
[WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT INDWELLING AND WORKING IN THE TRUE BELIEVER, THE BELIEVER WOULD NOT HAVE VICTORY OVER SIN. HOWEVER, IT IS NOT NECESSARY THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT INDWELL THE BODY ALSO. GOD CAN INDWELL THE SPIRIT AND WORK IN THE TRUE BELIEVER THAT WAY.]
[THE HOLY SPIRIT IS IN THE SPIRIT OF THE TRUE BELIEVER (ROMANS 8:9) AND WORKS IN HIM (PHILIPPIANS 2:12-13). WITH GOD’S HELP, THE BELIEVER IS TO PUT DOWN SIN IN HIS BODY. THESE VERSES DO NOT TEACH THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT DWELLS IN THE BELIEVER’S BODY. RATHER WITH GOD’S HELP, THE BELIEVER IS TO PUT DOWN SIN IN HIS BODY.]
However, in Romans 8:2 we read that the believer is made FREE from the law of sin. How are we made free? We are made free as we mortify/crucify the lusts of the flesh. So, Romans 7:18 and Romans 8:2 sets the context for Romans 8:10. These verses show that the law of sin was put to death when God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh. Christ condemned sin in the flesh and through His flesh we also suffer death because of the law of sin and death.
[ACTUALLY, ROMANS 8:10 IS A DESCRIPTION OF THE NATURE OF THE TRUE BELIEVER. HIS BODY IS DEAD, BUT GOD’S SPIRIT IS “LIFE” THAT INDWELLS THE TRUE BELIEVER’S SPIRIT (ROMANS 8:9).]
Ro 7: 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the FLESH the law of sin.
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me FREE from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[AS YOU SAID, THESE VERSES TEACH US ABOUT PUTTING DOWN SIN AND THE VICTORY THAT THE TRUE BELIEVER HAS IN THAT AREA.
HOWEVER, IN ROMANS 8:10, GOD IS DESCRIBING THE NATURE OF THE TRUE BELIEVER. HIS BODY IS STILL DEAD, BUT GOD’S SPIRIT IS “LIFE” (A NOUN - SO IT MUST BE GOD’S SPIRIT) THAT INDWELLS THE TRUE BELIEVER’S SPIRIT (ROMANS 8:9).]
Re: Let’s consider another part of Romans 8:10. God says “body is dead because of sin”. The phrase “because of sin” ties back to Genesis 2:17. Mankind died, both in body and spirit, the day he sinned. Man’s body is dead (separated from God; not indwelt by God, not energized by God) “because of sin”, because man sinned back in the Garden of Eden, back in Genesis 2:17 when man first disobeyed God. That is why Romans 8:10 says that the body is dead “because of sin”. God is tying back to Genesis 2:17 and the fact that man died, body and spirit, the day he sinned.]
We cannot tie Romans 8:10 back to Genesis 2:17 because they are not speaking about the same death.
[ROMANS 8:10 AND GENESIS 2:17 TIE DIRECTLY TOGETHER.
GENESIS 2:17 TEACHES THAT ADAM DIED THE DAY HE SINNED. OTHER VERSES TEACH THAT UNSAVED MAN IS ALREADY DEAD. THE TRUE BELIEVER STARTED OUT AS UNBELIEVER WHO DIED WHEN ADAM DIED (GENESIS 2:17, ROMANS 7:9-11). ROMANS 8:10 FOLLOWS ON FROM GENESIS 2:17 TO TEACH THAT THE TRUE BELIEVER’S BODY IS STILL DEAD.
ONLY HIS SPIRIT HAS BEEN “MADE ALIVE” (PSALM 80:18, EPHESIANS 2:5). HIS BODY REMAINS DEAD.
ROMANS 8:10 FOLLOWS ON DIRECTLY FROM GENESIS 2:17 THROUGH ROMANS 7:9-11 AND OTHER PASSAGES.]
Romans 8:10 refers to being dead in Christ or dead to the law--which leads to freedom from the law of sin (Romans 8:2).
[IN ROMANS 8:10, GOD DID NOT SAY “DEAD IN CHRIST” OR “DEAD TO THE LAW”. GOD SIMPLY SAID THE “BODY IS DEAD”.]
[THE PHRASES “DEAD TO THE LAW” AND “DEAD IN CHRIST” AGAIN SHOW THAT THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF DEATH CANNOT BE CESSATION OF EXISTENCE.
HAS THE TRUE BELIEVER CEASED TO EXIST IN ANYWAY?
THE BELIEVER IS “DEAD TO THE LAW” BECAUSE HE IS “SEPARATED FROM THE LAW” IN THE SENSE THAT THE LAW OF GOD CAN NO LONGER BRING ANY PUNISHMENT FOR SIN. CHRIST HAS MADE THE PAYMENT FOR HIS SINS.
THIS IS SIMILAR TO THE PHRASE THAT THE TRUE BELIEVER IS NOT UNDER THE LAW (ROMANS 6:14-15). THE BELIEVER IS NOT UNDER THE LAW IN THE SENSE THAT THE LAW CAN NOT BRING ANY PUNISHMENT. IN THE SAME WAY, THE TRUE BELIEVER IS “DEAD TO THE LAW”. THE TRUE BELIEVER IS “SEPARATED FROM THE LAW” IN THE SAME SENSE THAT HE IS NOT UNDER THE LAW. CHRIST MADE THE PAYMENT FOR HIS SINS. HE IS NOT SUBJECT TO THE PUNISHMENT REQUIRED BY THE LAW.
YOU MENTIONED ABOUT BEING “DEAD IN CHRIST”. Colossians 2:20 HELPS WITH THAT PHRASE. wE READ THERE “Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,”
THE TRUE BELIEVER HAS NOT CEASED TO EXIST IN ANYWAY. RATHER HE IS “WITH CHRIST” AND WITH CHRIST, HE IS SEPARATED FROM THE “rudiments of the world”. WE LOOKED AT THIS PHRASE “rudiments of the world” IN THE LAST EMAIL AND FOUND THAT IT TIES INTO THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN. THE TRUE BELIEVER IS “WITH CHRIST” AND WITH CHRIST, HE IS SEPARATED FROM THE NEED TO OBEY COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.
BUT, IF WE BELIEVE THAT “DEATH = CESSATION OF EXISTENCE”, THEN THE PHRASES “DEAD TO THE LAW” AND “DEAD IN CHRIST” TEACH THAT SOMEHOW THE TRUE BELIEVER HAS “CEASED TO EXIST”. BUT, HE HAS NOT CEASED TO EXIST IN ANYWAY. WHEN WE UNDERSTAND THAT “DEATH = SEPARATION”, THEN THESE PHRASES FIT PERFECTLY.]
However, Genesis 2:17 is speaking about spiritual death which brings bondage to the law.
[YOU MENTIONED “spiritual death”. GENESIS 2:17 SAYS “THOU SHALT SURELY DIE”. DO YOU HAVE ANY VERSES THAT SAY THAT ONLY THE SPIRIT OF ADAM DIED?
ROMANS 8:10 AND 1 CORINTHIANS 15:29 AND OTHER VERSES INDICATE THAT DEATH HAS COME TO BOTH THE SPIRIT AND THE BODY. THE BODY OF THE BELIEVER IS DEAD.]
Ro 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
[AGAIN, IF WE SAY THAT “DEATH = ANNIHILATION” THEN THESE VERSES DON’T FIT. BUT, WHEN WE LEARN THAT “DEATH = SEPARATION”, THEN THEY FIT.
AS MENTIONED ABOVE, WE ARE “SEPARATED INDEED FROM SIN”. WE ARE NOT IN BONDAGE TO COMMIT SIN. WE CAN DO IT GOD’S WAY. WE ARE “SEPARATED FROM THE LAW” IN THE SENSE THAT WE ARE NOT “UNDER LAW”. WE ARE NOT SUBJECT TO THE PUNISHMENT REQUIRED BY THE LAW. THE WAY GOD WROTE THESE VERSES MAKES SENSE WHEN WE UNDERSTAND THAT FOR MANKIND, “DEATH = SEPARATION”.]
Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
You wrote: [Romans 8:10 does not talk about mortifying the deeds of the body. Romans 8:10 is not talking about putting to death “deeds”. Rather Romans 8:10 is telling us that for the true believer, already, his “body is dead”. We cannot ignore this verse. It is a great help in understanding that the biblical definition of death for mankind cannot be cessation of existence. The body of the true believer still exists , but it is separated from God.] [Romans 8:10 does not talk about mortifying the deeds of the body. Romans 8:10 is not talking about putting to death “deeds”.
We cannot understand the meaning of the phrase the “body is dead” (Romans 8:10) unless we examine the context. Why does God state that the body is dead “because of sin”. First, we must recognize that sin is typified as a debt (Matthew 6:12). This debt eventually leads to death if it’s not paid in full.
[DEATH DOES NOT NEED TO EVENTUALLY COME. DEATH CAME THE DAY ADAM SINNED, AND THE UNSAVED ARE ALREADY DEAD. DEATH HAS ALREADY COME. IT IS NOT THAT SIN LEADS TO DEATH SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE. DEATH CAME THE DAY MAN SINNED.]
[IN ADDITION TO ROMANS 8:10, GOD HAS GIVEN A LOT OF VERSES THAT HELP WITH THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF “LIFE” AND “DEATH” FOR MANKIND.
IN 1 CORINTHIANS 15, GOD TALKS ABOUT THE RESURRECTION
OF THE BELIEVER’S BODY. THREE TIMES IN VERSE 29 GOD REFERS TO THE
GOD TELLS US THAT HE IS “LIFE” (JOHN 11:25, 14:6). WE THINK OF “LIFE” AS EXISTENCE, BUT GOD SAYS THAT HE IS “LIFE”.
THEN, GOD TELLS US THAT “LIFE” FOR MANKIND HAS TO DO WITH HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD (1 JOHN 5:12).
GOD SAYS THAT IF WE ARE NOT SAVED, WE HAVE NO “LIFE” IN US (JOHN 6:53). DO WE NOT HAVE EXISTENCE IN US? NO. BEFORE SALVATION, WE DO NOT HAVE GOD, WHO IS “LIFE”, DWELLING IN US.
WHEN WE HAVE BECOME SAVED, WE “ENTER INTO LIFE” (MATTHEW 18:8,9, 19:17, MARK 9:43,45). DO WE “ENTER INTO EXISTENCE”? NO. WE “ENTER INTO GOD”, INTO HIS KINGDOM, INTO THE FULNESS OF HIS BLESSINGS.
WHEN WE BECOME SAVED, WE HAVE “PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE” (JOHN 5:24, 1 JOHN 3:14). HOW HAVE WE “PASSED FROM NON-EXISTENCE TO EXISTENCE”?
WE HAVE PASSED UNTO GOD, WHO IS “LIFE”. THAT TIES INTO THE FACT THAT WE HAVE “ENTER INTO GOD”.
WHERE DID WE “PASS FROM”? IF WE PASSED UNTO GOD, THEN WE MUST HAVE BEEN SEPARATED FROM GOD. THIS HELPS US UNDERSTAND THAT FOR MANKIND, “DEATH = SEPARATION”.
BEFORE SALVATION, WE “ABIDE IN DEATH” (1 JOHN 3:14). DO WE “ABIDE IN NON-EXISTENCE”? NO. WE “ABIDE IN SEPARATION FROM GOD”. DEATH IS THE OPPOSITE OF LIFE, AND GOD IS “LIFE”. THIS IS ANOTHER PASSAGE THAT DEFINES DEATH FOR MANKIND AS SEPARATION.
WE READ MANY VERSES THAT DECLARE THAT UNSAVED MAN IS ALREADY “DEAD” (GENESIS 2:17, 1 PETER 4:6, EPHESIANS 2:1,5, COLOSSIANS 2:13, ROMANS 7:9).
HAS UNSAVED MAN CEASED TO EXIST IN ANYWAY? NO. WE ALREADY LOOKED AT VERSES THAT INDICATE THAT UNSAVED MAN STILL HAS A SPIRIT, AS WELL AS A BODY.
GOD SAYS THAT WHEN WE HAVE BECOME SAVED WE HAVE GONE DOWN THE PATH THAT “LEADETH UNTO LIFE” (MATTHEW 7:14). HAVE WE GONE DOWN A PATH THAT LEADS TO EXISTENCE? NO. THE UNSAVED ALREADY EXIST. RATHER, WE HAVE GONE DOWN THE PATH THAT LEADS TO GOD, WHO IS “LIFE”.
WE READ THAT UPON SALVATION GOD GIVES MAN “LIFE” (1
JOHN 5:16). DOES GOD GIVE
GOD SAYS THAT UNSAVED MAN OF HIMSELF WILL NOT COME TO GOD THAT HE MIGHT HAVE “LIFE” (JOHN 5:40, 20:31). THE UNSAVED ALREADY HAVE EXISTENCE. THEY NEED GOD, WHO COMES WITH HIS SALVATION PROGRAM.
WHEN GOD SAVES US, HE “QUICKEN US” OR “MAKE US ALIVE” (PSALM 80:18, 119:25, 37, 40, 50, 88, 143:11, EPHESIANS 2:5). DOES GOD MAKE US “EXIST”? NO. GOD GIVES US “LIFE”, WHICH IS GOD HIMSELF.
SO, GOD HAS GIVEN MANY VERSES THAT TEACH US THAT GOD HIMSELF IS “LIFE”, AND THAT “LIFE” FOR MANKIND HAS TO DO WITH HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD, AND THAT DEATH IS SEPARATION FROM GOD. DEATH IS THE OPPOSITE OF LIFE.
WE DON’T READ ABOUT “LIFE” FOR THE UNSAVED IN ETERNITY FUTURE NOT BECAUSE THEY DON’T EXIST. RATHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE COMPLETELY SEPARATED FROM GOD, WHO IS “LIFE”.
THE CORPSE THAT WE SEE IS A BODY SLEEPING IN THE DUST. ]
In Romans 8:12 we read that true believers are no longer debtors to the flesh. Why? Because Christ paid our debt by dying for our sins. Therefore, if Christ be “in you” because of sin, you are no longer in debt to the law of sin. The evidence of payment is that a believer will mortify the lusts of the flesh, in his mortal body, after he is raised with Christ.
[YES, WE ARE TO MORTIFY ‘LUSTS OF THE FLESH’ AS YOU SAID. BUT, ROMANS 8:10 DOES NOT TALK ABOUT THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH.
IN ROMANS 8:10, GOD MAKES A VERY SIMPLE AND PLAIN STATEMENT ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE TRUE BELIEVER, SAYING THE “BODY IS DEAD”. WE CANNOT CHANGE THAT TO THE “LUST OF THE BODY ARE DEAD”.]
So, again, this death (which is in Christ) does not mean separation from God—it means destruction.
[WE TALKED ABOUT “DESTRUCTION” EARLIER IN THIS EMAIL.
IN YOUR STATEMENT ABOVE, I ASSUME YOU MEAN THAT “DESTRUCTION = ANNIHILATION”.
IF “DEATH = DESTRUCTION = ANNIHILATION” THEN ROMANS 8:10 IS TEACHING FOR THE BELIEVER THAT THE “BODY IS ANNIHILATED”.
HOWEVER, WE KNOW THAT THE BELIEVER’S BODY HAS NOT BEEN ANNIHILATED. IT STILL EXISTS.]
Romans 8: 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.13 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do MORTIFY the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Col 3:5 MORTIFY therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
[YES, ROMANS 8:13 TALKS ABOUT PUTTING TO DEATH “DEEDS OF THE BODY” AND COLOSSIANS 3:5 DESCRIBES THE MEMBERS THAT ARE TO BE PUT TO DEATH; “fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness,”. THOSE ARE SINFUL DEEDS THAT WE SHOULD NOT DO.
THESE TWO PASSAGES ARE TALKING ABOUT PUTTING DEEDS TO DEATH. ROMANS 8:10 IS NOT TALKING ABOUT DEEDS, IT IS TALKING ABOUT THE STATE OF THE BELIEVER’S BODY, WHICH IS “DEAD”.]
[BY THE WAY, THE DEFINITION “DEATH = SEPARATION” FITS PERFECTLY FOR PUTTING SINFUL DEEDS TO DEATH. WE ARE TO SEPARATE OURSELVES FROM SINFUL ACTIONS. WE ARE NOT TO HAVE ANY PART IN THOSE.]
Mt 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Re: Romans 6 helps us to further see that the biblical definition of “death = separation”. If we try to substitute “cessation of existence” for “dead” in Romans 6, the passage does not make sense. However, if we substitute “separated”, it does make sense
If we carefully examine the context of Romans 6 we will see that it agrees with Romans 8. In Romans 6:6-7 we read that the body of the believers is free from sin after the “body of sin” is put to death/destroyed.
[WE LOOKED AT THAT WORD TRANSLATED “DESTROYED” IN ROMANS 6:6, AND IT IS USED SEVERAL TIMES IN THE SENSE OF “TO PUT AWAY”. ROMANS 6:6 IS TEACHING US TO “PUT AWAY” THE “BODY OF SIN”. WE HAVE TO STOP SINNING. ]
In Romans 8:2 we also read that a believer is made free from the law of sin through the death of Christ. As noted earlier, this language indicates that we must crucify/mortify the flesh if we claim to be in Christ. Christ was not simply separated from God as punishment for sin. He was completely destroyed. So, we cannot use these verses to teach that death means separation.
[ROMANS 6:2 SAYS “dead to sin” AND ROMANS 6:11 SAYS “dead indeed unto sin”.
THESE STATEMENTS DO NOT AGREE WITH THE DEFINITION THAT “DEATH = CESSATION OF EXISTENCE”. OTHERWISE, THEY WOULD SAY THAT THE TRUE BELIEVER HAS “CEASED TO EXIST” IN SOME WAY.
THESE STATEMENTS DO AGREE WITH THE DEFINITION “DEATH = SEPARATION”. THE TRUE BELIEVER IS “SEPARATED FROM SIN” AND “SEPARATED INDEED FROM SIN”, BECAUSE GOD IS ENERGIZING HIM AND ENABLING HIM NOT TO SIN.]
[YOU MENTIONED CHRIST’S DEATH.
I HAVE AVOIDED TALKING ABOUT THE DEFINITION OF “CHRIST’S DEATH” BECAUSE GOD IS AN INFINITE BEING AND WE DON’T UNDERSTAND MUCH ABOUT GOD. WE CANNOT TALK TOO SPECIFICALLY ABOUT GOD.
I BELIEVE TRYING TO TALK ABOUT THIS SUBJECT IN REGARDS TO THE ATONEMENT LEADS TO CONFUSING CONVERSATIONS.
THE BIBLE IS MUCH MORE CLEAR ON THE DEFINITION OF “LIFE” AND “DEATH” FOR MANKIND AND THAT IS THE KEY ISSUE.
HOWEVER, THE DEFINITION “DEATH = SEPARATION” FITS THE LANGUAGE OF ATONEMENT.
THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT THE SON WAS SEPARATED FROM THE FATHER ON THE CROSS AS WE READ IN:
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
THE FATHER “FORSOOK” THE SON. THIS WORD HAS THE SENSE OF LEAVE OR ABANDON WHICH MEANS TO “SEPARATE” FROM.
ALSO, THE BIBLE PUTS EMPHASIS ON WHAT HAPPENED TO CHRIST WHILE HE WAS ON THE CROSS BEFORE HIS SPIRIT WENT INTO HEAVEN AS WE READ IN:
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
SO, THE DEFINITION THAT “DEATH = SEPARATION” WILL FIT FOR CHRIST AND THE ATONEMENT. HE WAS SEPARATED FROM THE FATHER, WHO IS GOD, WHILE ON THE CROSS. THE BIBLE PUT EMPHASIS ON WHAT HAPPENED ON THE CROSS IN JOHN 19:30.
I PREFER NOT TO ARGUE WHAT IS “DEATH” FOR GOD. THE VERSES GIVEN ABOVE SHOW THAT “DEATH = SEPARATION” WILL FIT FOR CHRIST.
HOWEVER, I BELIEVE THAT TALKING ABOUT THE DEFINITION OF “DEATH” FOR GOD RESULTS IN CONFUSION. WE HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION TO TALK ABOUT “LIFE” AND “DEATH” FOR MANKIND. ]
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.7 For he that is
dead is FREED from sin. Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me FREE from the law of sin and death.
[THE “dead” in the PHRASE “dead is FREED from sin” refers to the true believers. the word “freed” is actually translated “justify” in every other usage. it is a different word than the word “free” in romans 8:2. a better translation would be “For he that is dead is justified from sin”.
THE BELIEVER IS THE “DEAD” AND HE HAS BEEN JUSTIFIED FROM SIN.
THIS PHRASE “dead is justified from sin” AGREES WITH THE DEFINITION THAT “dEATH = SEPARATION”. THE TRUE BELIEVER IS IN cHRIST AND SEPARATED FROM SIN AND THE “rudiments of the world” WHICH IDENTIFY WITH COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.
HOWEVER, THE DEFINITION “DEATH = ANNIHILATION” WILL NOT FIT. OTHERWISE, WE HAVE “For he that is ANNIHILATED is justified from sin”. THE CONTEXT OF THIS PASSAGE IS THAT IT IS TALKING ABOUT THE TRUE BELIEVER. THE BELIEVER IS NOT ANNIHILATED. ]
Re: A pile of bones cannot “awake to my judgment”. God defines words by how he uses them.]
We have to be careful not to read too much into the word “awake” especially since verses like Daniel 12:2 do not state that the unsaved will live again.
[THERE ARE MANY VERSES THAT TEACH THAT GOD HIMSELF IS “LIFE” AND THAT “LIFE” FOR MANKIND HAS TO DO WITH HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD, WHO IS “LIFE” AND DEATH FOR MANKIND IS SEPARATION. SOME OF THESE VERSES ARE DISCUSSED IN THESE STUDIES:
IF WE DECIDE THAT “LIFE = EXISTENCE” AND “DEATH = CESSATION OF EXISTENCE OR A CORPSE”, THEN WE CAN USE THESE DEFINITIONS TO TEACH ANNIHILATION. BUT, THERE ARE MANY VERSES OF THE BIBLE THAT DO NOT FIT FOR THESE DEFINITIONS.]
[YES, THE UNSAVED DO NOT COME BACK TO LIFE. BECAUSE WHEN THEY AWAKE THEY DO NOT AWAKE TO GOD INDWELLING THEM, WHO IS “LIFE”. THEY WILL THEN BE COMPLETELY SEPARATED FROM GOD.
IN THIS WORLD THE UNSAVED STILL HAVE “LIFE”, WHICH IS GOD (ACTS 17:28). BUT, WHEN THEY AWAKE TO JUDGMENT THEY WILL NOT HAVE GOD, WHO IS “LIFE”.]
[LET’S GO BACK TO YOUR STATEMENT “We have to be careful not to read too much into the word “awake””.
GOD HAS GIVEN US THIS HEBREW WORD TRANSLATED “AWAKE”. THEREFORE, WE HAVE TO CONSIDER IT ALSO. GOD HAS USED THIS HEBREW WORD 22 TIMES, SO IT HAS GOOD BIBLICAL DEFINITION. IT IS ALWAYS USED TO SPEAK OF SOME CONSCIOUSNESS OR ACTION. IT IS NEVER USED IN REFERENCE TO AN INANIMATE OBJECT.
GOD WARNS NOT TO TELL INANIMATE OBJECTS TO “AWAKE” USING THIS SAME HEBREW WORD (Habakkuk 2:19).
more importantly, god indicates that an unconscious corpse is not awake (2 kings 4:31). therefore, to fulfill daniel 12:2, the unsaved cannot remain as unconscious corpses.]
[THERE ARE MANY PROOFS OF THE CONSCIOUS AWAKING OF THE UNSAVED AT JUDGMENT DAY THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WORD “AWAKE”. SOME OF THESE VERSES ARE GIVEN AT THESE LINKS:
Throughout the Bible, we find much language which suggestions that inanimate objects react physically to God’s commandments. For example, in Mark 4:41 we read that the sea and wind obeyed Jesus. Does this mean that the sea and wind are living beings who have ears to hear? Of course not.
[THAT WORD “OBEY” IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WORD AND CONVEYING A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MEANING THAN THE HEBREW WORD “AWAKE”. GOD DEFINES WORDS BY HOW HE USES THEM IN THE BIBLE.
WE HAVE TO CHECK OUT EACH HEBREW OR GREEK WORD IN THE BIBLE AND SEE HOW GOD USES THAT WORD (1 CORINTHIANS 2:13).
I CHECKED HOW GOD USES THAT GREEK WORD TRANSLATED “OBEY” AND IT IS USED SEVERAL TIMES TO SPEAK OF AN ACTION HAPPENING TO SOMETHING. FOR EXAMPLE, THE BIBLE USES THAT GREEK IN THIS WAY:
“I MOVED MY COFFEE CUP AND IT OBEYED.”
THIS WORD SIMPLY MEANS THAT WHAT HAPPENED TO THE COFFEE CUP WAS CONSISTENT WITH THE COMMAND.
GOD HAS DEFINED THIS GREEK WORD THIS WAY BY HOW HE USES IT. HOWEVER, GOD NEVER USES THAT HEBREW WORD TRANSLATED “AWAKE” IN THAT WAY.
GOD HAS DEFINED THE GREEK WORD “OBEY”
BUT, GOD HAS DEFINED THIS HEBREW WORD “AWAKE” SO THAT AN INANIMATE CORPSE CANNOT FULFILL IT (2 KINGS 4:31).
A CRITICAL PART OF BIBLE STUDY IS BASED UPON 1 CORINTHIANS 2:13 WHERE GOD SAYS HE DEFINES WORDS BY HOW HE USES THEM.]
Also, in I Chronicles 16:33 we read that the trees will sing when the Lord comes to judge the earth. Again, we know that trees will not literally sing nor will the earth groan nor will the stones cry out to praise God. Lu 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the STONES would immediately CRY out.
Mr 4:41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?
1Ch 16:33 Then shall the TREES of the wood SING out at the presence of the LORD, because he cometh to judge the earth. Da 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
[THE “TREES” REPRESENT THE TRUE BELIEVERS. WE SEE THAT IN PSALM 1:3. IN 1 CHRONICLES 16:33, GOD IS SAYING THAT THE TRUE BELIEVERS WILL SING TO GOD. THE TRUE BELIEVERS WILL CONSCIOUSLY SING TO GOD.
THE “STONES” ARE THE TRUE BELIEVERS AS WE READ IN 1 CORINTHIANS 3:12. THE TRUE BELIEVERS, THE STONES, WILL CONSCIOUSLY CRY OUT.
WE DON’T WANT TO FORGET THAT CHRIST SPOKE IN PARABLES. THERE IS A CONSCIOUS FULFILLMENT BY THE TRUE BELIEVERS OF 1 CHRONICLES 16:33 AND LUKE 19:40. ]
So, when we read about that the awakening of dry bones in the dust of the earth we must not assume that they will live. The fact is, the Bible simply says their graves will be opened. As a result, they will suffer shame, contempt and damnation—but they will not be raised to life.
[THE UNSAVED WILL NOT BE RAISED TO GOD, WHO IS “LIFE”. THEY WILL NOT BE “MADE ALIVE” (PSALM 80:18), WHICH IS TO HAVE GOD. THEY WILL NOT “ENTER INTO LIFE” (MARK 9:43), WHICH IS TO ENTER INTO GOD.
THE BIBLE DEFINES THAT “LIFE” FOR MANKIND HAS TO DO WITH HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD, WHO IS “LIFE”.
BUT, GOD SAYS THAT THE UNSAVED WILL “AWAKE” AND GOD SAYS THAT AN UNCONSCIOUS CORPSE IS NOT “AWAKE”. ]
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
[THE WORD “DAMNATION” DOES NOT TELL US IF THE UNSAVED WILL HAVE CONSCIOUSNESS OR NOT. IT MEANS THAT THEY ARE UNDER THE JUDGMENT OF GOD. WE HAVE TO LOOK AT OTHER WORDS BESIDE THE WORD “DAMNATION” TO DETERMINE IF THE UNSAVED ARE RESURRECTED TO CONSCIOUSNESS.
A KEY WORD IN THIS PASSAGE IS “HEAR”. THE UNSAVED WILL “HEAR” THE VOICE OF GOD.
PEOPLE GO TO EZEKIEL 37:4 AND CITE THIS VERSE:
“Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.”
PEOPLE SAY, “LITERAL DRY BONES ARE ABLE HEAR THE WORD OF GOD. THEREFORE, HEARING DOES NOT REQUIRE CONSCIOUSNESS.”
HOWEVER, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT EVERYTHING GOD SAYS IN EZEKIEL 37.
WE READ IN VERSE 11:
“Then he said unto me, Son of
man, these bones are the whole house of
GOD IS STILL TALKING ABOUT THESE SAME “DRY BONES”.
NOTICE IN VERSE 11 THAT THESE DRY BONES CAN TALK. THEY SAY “Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts”.
THESE BONES IN EZEKIEL 37 CAN TALK!
NOTICE THAT THESE BONES ALSO EXPERIENCE CONSCIOUS AFFLICTION. THEY ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT THEIR MISERABLE CONDITION.
SO, IF PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE THAT THE UNSAVED WILL BE
RESURRECTED AS DRY BONES THAT CAN HEAR, THEN THESE SAME DRY BONES WILL ALSO BE ABLE
TO SPEAK AND EXPERIENCE THE CONSCIOUS AFFLICTIONS OF THE
TO UNDERSTAND WHAT GOD IS TEACHING IN EZEKIEL 37:1-14, WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT SOME PASSAGES ARE SIMPLY PARABLES WITH NO HISTORICAL FULFILLMENT.
WE READ IN JOHN 6:53:
“Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.”
JESUS IS SAYING THAT WE HAVE TO “eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood”.
IS THERE ANY HISTORICAL FULFILLMENT TO THIS STATEMENT?
NO. THE TRUE BELIEVERS WERE NEVER TO LITERALLY EAT CHRIST’S FLESH AND DRINK HIS BLOOD.
JOHN 6:53 DOES NOT HAVE ANY HISTORICAL FULFILLMENT. IT ONLY HAS A PARABOLIC OR GOSPEL FULFILLMENT.
TO “eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood” MEANS TO READ THE BIBLE.
JOHN 6:53 ONLY HAS A PARABOLIC FULFILLMENT. IT DOES NOT HAVE ANY HISTORICAL FULFILLMENT. THE SAME IS TRUE CONCERNING EZEKIEL 37:1-11.
THERE NEVER HAS BEEN, NOR EVER WILL BE A TIME WHEN A PILE OF BONES WILL BE TURNED INTO AN ARMY OF PEOPLE. EZEKIEL 37:1-11 ONLY HAS A PARABOLIC FULFILLMENT. IT IS TALKING ABOUT UNSAVED ELECT PEOPLE WHO BECOME SAVED.
THERE IS NO HISTORICAL APPLICATION TO EZEKIEL 37:1-11.
HOWEVER, IF SOMEONE INSISTS THAT IT HAS A HISTORICAL
FULFILLMENT AND THAT THE UNSAVED WILL BE RESURRECTED AS BONES THAT CAN HEAR,
THEN EZEKIEL 37:11 TEACHES THAT THESE BONES WILL BE ABLE TO SPEAK AND TO
EXPERIENCE THE AFFLICTIONS OF THE
GOD TELLS US WHETHER AN UNCONSCIOUS CORPSE OR BONES CAN “HEAR” IN 2 KINGS 4:31.
IN 2 KINGS 4:31 WE READ:
“And Gehazi passed on before them, and laid the staff upon the face of the child; but there was neither voice, nor hearing. Wherefore he went again to meet him, and told him, saying, The child is not awaked.”
2 KINGS 4 HAS THE ACCOUNT OF THE BOY WHO WAS RESURRECTED. IN VERSE 31 GEHAZI IS TALKING ABOUT THE UNCONSCIOUS CORPSE OF THIS BOY.
IN VERSE 31 GEHAZI IS SPEAKING UNDER THE INSPIRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND SAYING THAT THERE WAS “neither voice, nor hearing” FROM THIS UNCONSCIOUS CORPSE.
GOD PUT THOSE WORDS THERE. GOD IS SAYING THAT AN UNCONSCIOUS CORPSE DOES NOT SPEAK. ALSO, GOD IS SAYING THAT AN UNCONSCIOUS CORPSE DOES NOT HEAR.
GOD HAS GIVEN US A VERY HISTORICAL, LITERAL ACCOUNT IN 2 KINGS 4 SO THAT WE CAN UNDERSTAND THAT A CORPSE CANNOT “SPEAK” NOR CAN IT “HEAR”.
SO, WE CAN KNOW THAT WHEN JOHN 5:28-29 TALK ABOUT THE UNSAVED “HEARING” HIS VOICE, THAT AN UNCONSCIOUS CORPSE DOES NOT FULFILL THAT STATEMENT. THE UNSAVED MUST “AWAKE” TO CONSCIOUSNESS TO FULFILL THE BIBLE DECLARATION THAT THEY WILL “HEAR” WITH CONSCIOUSNESS.
THIS INFORMATION IS COVERED IN MORE DETAIL IN THESE STUDIES:
Thanks again for the response.
[THANK YOU AGAIN FOR THE REPLY.]